How energy becomes force

[lemur]

I was thinking about how energy could become transformed into force and this is what I came up with: Consider a black hole as a pure gravity-emitter. Nevermind for the moment what happens with matter-energy once it falls into the black hole. The point is that when photons enter and get trapped, they must add to the gravitation emitted by the black hole, correct? Therefore, would it make sense to say that photons get converted into gravitation when they enter a black hole?

 

Now could it be that black holes represent one version of a more general phenomenon: i.e. attractive fields that grow by consuming photons (and/or other matter-energy)? So, for example, could it be that an electron or proton consumes photons in the same way a black hole does and converts the energy into field-force?

 

Before throwing this idea out as nonsense, please consider that an electron could lose energy as photon-emissions in a similar way to how a black hole loses mass(gravitational potential) as Hawking radiation and/or gravity waves. The speed at which the body emits a given amount of wave-energy would vary proportionately with its mass, right? So a slightly heavier electron or black-hole would emit more energy in its EM or gravity waves, respectively, due to greater mass and therefore lose the added mass/energy faster as a result.

 

I'm not saying that all the energy that leaves electrons or BHs is taken from the mass/intensity of its field-force. Some of it comes from its kinetic energy (i.e. momentum). I'm just wondering if its mass/energy, momentum-energy, and wave-emissions could all be parts of the energy-balancing process.

Edited December 22, 2010 by lemur

[CaptainPanic]

If an electron absorps a photon, its energy increases. The electron then emits a photon, and loses the energy again.

 

This is all well-described in the theory of energy states. Electrons can get excited by photons.

Edited December 22, 2010 by CaptainPanic

[lemur]

If an electron absorps a photon, its energy increases. The electron then emits a photon, and loses the energy again.

 

This is all well-described in the theory of energy states. Electrons can get excited by photons.

 

I know the basics of electron energy states and how photons get absorbed or emitted but thanks for the link because I am still learning the details. What I'm thinking about here, though, is what the possible internal dynamics of how electrons can absorb energy and emit it as EM waves. I know it is practically taboo to in any way think about electrons like planets orbiting a star, but I still think there may be some basis for analogy. E.g. if you would consider the Earth in its current orbit suddenly absorbing a great deal of surrounding matter without that matter adding any directional momentum, for example if a cloud of very dense particulate dust would fall to Earth from all directions adding to its mass significantly, its momentum would increase accordingly due to the increase in gravitational attraction with the sun. This, in turn, would cause it to accelerate and, even if it accelerated at some angle (say, toward Venus), its speed would increase in such a way that it would go into a wider eliptical orbit, which would be unstable because its speed would have increased to maybe that of Venus while the distance of the orbit would be longer and therefore it would be performing more (potential) work (FD) than Venus if Venus had the same mass. Such an orbit could be called, "excited," no?

 

Now, suppose the planets orbited together with a relatively homogenous cloud of dense particles like the one that Earth absorbed to gain the mass in the first place. In that case, the excited, more eccentric shape of Earth's orbit would cause it to "plow through" the dust in such a way that it would push and drag a growing cloud of it around with it. If this dust didn't fall to Earth further adding to its mass and therefore momentum, it could pile up in such a way as to "spill over" into a "wave-cloud" under its own gravitation, which could send it rolling away from Earth at a much higher speed due to the mass of the "wave-cloud" being much less than Earth (like a slow moving bowling ball bumping a helium balloon).

 

The helium balloon, of course, represents the photon, which forms from the "dust," which represents the EM field-force surrounding the electron. The reason I think the electron could be like a black hole, swallowing up incoming photon-energy is because I see the charge-intensity of the electron as analogous to the mass/gravitation of a black hole, where the black hole converts the energy and matter it consumes into gravitation and inertia. So the electron's excitation would be at least partly due to its increasing mass/inertia, which would cause its momentum to increase at its current speed; as well as due to its increased charge-intensity, which would cause its electrostatic attraction to the positively-charged nucleus to increase.

 

Just as a black hole is surrounded by gravitational field-force, the electron is surrounded by EM field-force. So I would think that an accelerating black hole would build up a gravity-wave as its gravitation or that of something else near it was getting blue-shifted to the point of "spilling over" into a wave. Likewise, the electron would build up "blue-shifted" EM field-force. I can't decide if it would be logical that the black hole or electron would lose field-force/mass by emitting the wave, though. On the one hand I think that a black hole can't lose mass/gravitation/energy because it is trapped inside the black hole by its gravity, but on the other hand it seems like the matter-energy it consumes get converted into field-force completely and therefore some could "break away" as a wave-emission, especially since the fixed-quanta of such waves seems to imply that a partial wave would drag additional field-force from the black-hole simply because partial waves aren't possible (some kind of internal cohesion to a force-wave?).

 

I know I sound like a crackpot running with such a relatively ungrounded idea, but I see this as somewhat the privilege of someone with less academic anchoring than a credentialled physicist. I am interested in learning from my logical mistakes and whatever existing knowledge contradicts aspects of my thinking, so I'm happy to get any feedback that clearly shows me specific weaknesses in the way I'm thinking about these fields/forces.

[alpha2cen]

I thought about it before.

Have a look this cite. #79

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/52948-why-does-mass-curve-space-time/page__st__60

It's against current theory.

But for next more good model.

[swansont]

I thought about it before.

Have a look this cite. #79

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/52948-why-does-mass-curve-space-time/page__st__60

It's against current theory.

But for next more good model.

 

!

Moderator Note

emphasis added.

 

If it's contrary to accepted theory, it belongs in speculations, and posting this is in violation of rules 2.5 and 2.10. You need to stop doing this

 

I was thinking about how energy could become transformed into force and this is what I came up with: Consider a black hole as a pure gravity-emitter. Nevermind for the moment what happens with matter-energy once it falls into the black hole. The point is that when photons enter and get trapped, they must add to the gravitation emitted by the black hole, correct? Therefore, would it make sense to say that photons get converted into gravitation when they enter a black hole?

 

Now could it be that black holes represent one version of a more general phenomenon: i.e. attractive fields that grow by consuming photons (and/or other matter-energy)? So, for example, could it be that an electron or proton consumes photons in the same way a black hole does and converts the energy into field-force?

 

The gravity of the system is unchanged before and after the photon absorption. The gravity is dependent on the mass+energy of the system.

[IM Egdall]

To clarify further, per E=mc**2, mass and energy produce equivalent physical effects. The presence of mass produces a gravitational field. And the presence of energy (e.g. photons) also produces a gravitational field.

Edited December 23, 2010 by I ME

[lemur]

The gravity of the system is unchanged before and after the photon absorption. The gravity is dependent on the mass+energy of the system.

Doesn't the photon getting absorbed ADD energy to the system?

 

To clarify further, per E=mc**2, mass and energy produce equivalent physical effects. The presence of mass produces a gravitational field. And the presence of energy (e.g. photons) also produces a gravitational field.

Yes, I know that E=MC^2 equates energy and mass. What I'm trying to discuss with this thread is HOW, in terms of mechanisms, energy could become converted into matter, or rather force. Then the question would be how various forms of force emerge and transform into other forms, no?

Edited December 23, 2010 by lemur

[swansont]

Doesn't the photon getting absorbed ADD energy to the system?

 

The photon has to be considered part of the system. You can't ignore the contribution the photon makes to gravity until after it reaches the event horizon.

[lemur]

The photon has to be considered part of the system. You can't ignore the contribution the photon makes to gravity until after it reaches the event horizon.

So what you're saying is that light on the way to an object is already adding to the gravitation of the field it is passing through (or into)? Still there seems to me to be a difference between gravity added to a system by light passing through it and gravity added because the light got absorbed and not re-emitted. If, for example, a black hole consumes a great deal of light and then emits a gravity wave, this process seems different to me than if light would hit a star or planet and re-emit.