Humans in CyberSpace (TRON) Thought Possible.

[ChrisTucker]

Sorry for the double post, didnt know which section to post in.

 

Hello, First i would like to point out i am 16 years of age, with many different ideas... and a very large mental capacity.

 

 

First i would like to start off with what TRON is... based on the NEWER movie if some do not know.

 

Here is the Trailer to the newer movie

 

Alright now onto the more advanced stuff.

 

In the movie they used a lazer to blast the human into "the GRID" as it would be called, but is more into the terms of a type of CyberSpace

 

Now here is where i got to thinking.

 

 

it has already been confirmed that scientists are working on things like molecular Transportation and stuff like that, How this is done is beyond me i still have some research to do, but this is the idea.

 

When they test this they usualy use an un-animated object. and transport it from Point A to point B, which isnt very far away... but

 

WHAT IF, we found the link to cyberspace, considering now-days technology is can be accessed to wireless connections, and would not need to be next to the grid

 

So here is the idea, would transporting a human from Here, to CyberSpace be possible?

[A Tripolation]

Like, take a human, deconstruct them down to the smallest particle, and then recreate them in a digitized version in a world controlled by electrical pulses?

[Moontanman]

It would be far more likely to down load a humans memories and personality into a computer and for that person to be able to continue his or her existence inside the computer as part of some sort of virtual reality. I see no reason to transport the real physical person into the computer, where would all the mass of the human go?

[ydoaPs]

It doesn't really make sense; cyberspace isn't really a place where you can go.

[A Tripolation]

It doesn't really make sense; cyberspace isn't really a place where you can go.

 

Yeah. That's precisely it.

[mississippichem]

It doesn't really make sense; cyberspace isn't really a place where you can go.

 

We're all in cyberspace right now having a conversation.

[Xittenn]

 

it has already been confirmed that scientists are working on things like molecular Transportation and stuff like that, How this is done is beyond me i still have some research to do, but this is the idea.

 

When they test this they usualy use an un-animated object. and transport it from Point A to point B, which isnt very far away... but

 

WHAT IF, we found the link to cyberspace, considering now-days technology is can be accessed to wireless connections, and would not need to be next to the grid

 

So here is the idea, would transporting a human from Here, to CyberSpace be possible?[/size]

 

 

At present I do believe the closest concept to teleportation is developed on entanglement and involves the teleportation of a photon!

 

There should be successful advances in computer sciences where interfaces directly to the brain will allow mental spacialization of a virtual world within my life time; I hope ...

 

Taking the two concepts I personally don't see why, if given the proper equipment, a human body couldn't be reduced to information and allowed to play out in a virtual environment. If all the atoms in a human body were accurately representable on a computing device and the device allowed for a time evolved simulation then I am of the opinion that experiences may exist for the individual. If the human were put back together from the information and with the changes affected by any experiences they would recall their time in the machine. This of course is of some debate as a good number of persons on the planet believe that we have souls and if this is the case machines are most likely outside of such a realm. I guess this also brings into question whether or not a machine can properly simulate intelligence which is another topic of argument.

 

I like to keep an open mind about these things it's how goals are set and progress made. Even if it isn't possible at least you learned something in finding out how it isn't so ....

 

Any volunteers?

[lemur]

Cyborg evolution is very interesting because it involves the development of hybridizations and connectivities between embodied "flesh and blood" humans and their machine technologies. I haven't seen Tron yet, but I have been using my friend's mobile phone with web-browser and I've noticed that in just a few days, I adjusted my memory to rely more heavily on the internet. This may seem insignificant but it is effectively shifting brain-memory to electronic memory. My brain is liberated by relying on portable electronic storage. It's getting ever closer to direct brain-implants. The question is whether cyberspace and virtual-realties will host cultural developments that foster sustainable changes in non-virtual culture and economics. I hope so because this economy is stagnating in its own status-quo-ism.

[ChrisTucker]

Well i was reading up on BCI (Brain Computer Interface) and if someone just worked on these some more, a virtual world could easily be created in my opinion, but translating the human body into data.. that would be unreal.

 

After thinking about how crazy this idea was i was looking at other possible outcomes, such as mayb a chair with some sort of electrical device that monitors brain-waves, sends them to the computer-device which then translates it and sends it to the server, Creating a Single player game like this should be easier, but its converting the brain-waves into data and sending them through cyberspace to the other players so they can see each other that would be unreal, but we will probably see it within the next 30-40 years.

 

I honestly think unrealistic movies like tron have inspired new creations

[Mrs Zeta]

What you are talking about is, effectively, a concept of 'posthumanism', see here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posthuman (particularly the section on Posthuman in Transhumanism).

 

There is nothing magical or crancky about these positions, it is just how the world is inevitably (and currently) evolving. We are seeing the first steps now, leading to human enhancement, and eventually to indefinite lifespans, teleportation and other currently science-fiction ideas.

[glitch]

Transportation may be possible, but from a purely physics point of view,transportation to cyberspace isnt an option. Cyberspace is purely virtual. it has no physical component. From the basic laws of matter, matter cannot be created of destroyed. So in essence, the idea of teleporting to cyberspace is in essence the same as disappearing from existence.

Edited January 5, 2011 by glitch

[agentrnge]

Teleportation is not the problem to be solved. The direction I think/hope we will take, when brain/computer interfaces become better and better, we will become less dependent on our bodies. Our brains do a great job of learning what incoming patterns are. Those patterns don't need to come from our body. A "visual" signal, a "touch" signal, a "sound" signal is just nerve pulses that make there way throughout our brains.

 

Fast forward through some crazy brain-computer interface development. Consider a living physical brain, kept bathed in a flow of blood or something functionally equivalent to deliver oxygen/glucose/proteins and remove waste/CO2 but otherwise a "brain in a jar". It is connected to an array of input/output gear into 1) a prosthetic body, or 2) a simulated virtual experience that only exists digitally. Would the brain know the difference?

 

How much of the physical brain can be removed and replaced with more or less "normal" computational/deterministic hardware?

 

Would we want to be living "in" cyberspace? Immortality might involve an endless sea of user aware advertisements. lol.

[Moontanman]

Teleportation is not the problem to be solved. The direction I think/hope we will take, when brain/computer interfaces become better and better, we will become less dependent on our bodies. Our brains do a great job of learning what incoming patterns are. Those patterns don't need to come from our body. A "visual" signal, a "touch" signal, a "sound" signal is just nerve pulses that make there way throughout our brains.

 

Fast forward through some crazy brain-computer interface development. Consider a living physical brain, kept bathed in a flow of blood or something functionally equivalent to deliver oxygen/glucose/proteins and remove waste/CO2 but otherwise a "brain in a jar". It is connected to an array of input/output gear into 1) a prosthetic body, or 2) a simulated virtual experience that only exists digitally. Would the brain know the difference?

 

How much of the physical brain can be removed and replaced with more or less "normal" computational/deterministic hardware?

 

Would we want to be living "in" cyberspace? Immortality might involve an endless sea of user aware advertisements. lol.

 

 

I don't think the brain would know the difference but the living nightmare of "user aware advertisements" would be par for the course, lol. Quite possibly the brain would be center of a fantasy landscape of anything you could imagine, live out any existence just like it was reality. I could be Captain of the Star Ship Enterprise and you could populate your universe with imaginary people who would seem real or maybe other people might want to populate your imaginary cyberscape much like TV shows have fans. So if your cyberscape is most popular you could get revenues from users wanting to live in your universe and that would at least imply advertisements of some sort Damn commercials ruin everything

 

Of course there is no chance such technology would be used for virtual porn

Edited January 7, 2011 by Moontanman

[agentrnge]

Lol. Well, all joking aside. Porn and advertisements have driven the explosion of internet technology. So its likely that the pursuit of better targeted ads and ever more realistic virtual porn will lead enough investors to invest in enough cool new tech.

 

And slightly more seriously, Imagine being free of at least some constraints of reality. Imagine natively "seeing" 4+ dimensional space? It blows my future augmented cyberized brain!

 

For fun reading, check out Greg Egan. And for fun watching ( and or reading ) Check out the Ghost in the Shell movies/series/manga.

[vordhosbn]

Porn - the force which is driving the human progress!

[khaled]

lol, I think I know how it is possible,

 

If one human can get his mind into Subconscious State !

 

The inner brain will take any input without assertion,

 

that's when we can use a pulse generator connected to the brain,

 

the pulse generator will be used to generate scenes, sounds, motion, and feelings

 

which will be like a dream, but more powerful !

 

which will seem like a normal life ...

 

Crazy, isn't it .. well, that's my guess,

 

if it becomes real, you can have just-like-real imaginary sex .. without using your body at all !

Edited January 20, 2011 by khaled

[agentrnge]

I dont think the brain needs to be dreaming/unconscious for properly formed input to be usable. That is all the brain does all day is use input that organs send to it as well as its own feedback. But in a dream state, a lot of brain components that would normally (in a waking state) try to rectify nonsense would be turned off, (thus the ability to have awesome nonsensical dreams) and maybe malformed/noisy/way-off input could be perceived more easily. even if its bonkers input.

[khaled]

I dont think the brain needs to be dreaming/unconscious for properly formed input to be usable. That is all the brain does all day is use input that organs send to it as well as its own feedback. But in a dream state, a lot of brain components that would normally (in a waking state) try to rectify nonsense would be turned off, (thus the ability to have awesome nonsensical dreams) and maybe malformed/noisy/way-off input could be perceived more easily. even if its bonkers input.

 

I don't really know but, it's said that when one sleeps his soul leaves the body,

[Xittenn]

I don't really know but, it's said that when one sleeps his soul leaves the body,

 

I had that dream once my soul left my body and I flew to the moon like Peter Panning

 

This ties in well with the other thread that was posted a week ago about dying in dreams. If you were to die in this machine would you die as well or maybe would the machine kill you intentionally just to give a more real experience? If it is the case of having been dematerialized I would suspect that any number of possibilities was possible and that it would be much like the Matrix .... Else I would suspect that the mind would get upset if the random deaths became too frequent!

[khaled]

I had that dream once my soul left my body and I flew to the moon like Peter Panning

 

This ties in well with the other thread that was posted a week ago about dying in dreams. If you were to die in this machine would you die as well or maybe would the machine kill you intentionally just to give a more real experience? If it is the case of having been dematerialized I would suspect that any number of possibilities was possible and that it would be much like the Matrix .... Else I would suspect that the mind would get upset if the random deaths became too frequent!

 

death has many meanings cutie, like sleep, brain stop, coma, ...

[liars_paradox]

Sorry for the double post, didnt know which section to post in.

 

Hello, First i would like to point out i am 16 years of age, with many different ideas... and a very large mental capacity.

 

 

First i would like to start off with what TRON is... based on the NEWER movie if some do not know.

 

Here is the Trailer to the newer movie

 

Alright now onto the more advanced stuff.

 

In the movie they used a lazer to blast the human into "the GRID" as it would be called, but is more into the terms of a type of CyberSpace

 

Now here is where i got to thinking.

 

 

it has already been confirmed that scientists are working on things like molecular Transportation and stuff like that, How this is done is beyond me i still have some research to do, but this is the idea.

I think that recall reading this back when I was in high school, but I think that it kind of works like a scanner or a copy machine - except that it's in 3-dimensions, scans more than just the surface of the object/substance, and the old copy is destroyed and then remade somewhere else.

However, I think that they could only get this to work with certain gases, but I could be wrong. It's been a while since I read this article.

When they test this they usualy use an un-animated object. and transport it from Point A to point B, which isnt very far away... but

Again, if you're talking about what I think that you're talking about, then distance wouldn't matter. The information about the original is stored after the original object has been "scanned", and then remade somwhere else. But, the distance that this data would be transmitted or how far someone would have to walk with some storage media that contained the data wouldn't matter.

WHAT IF, we found the link to cyberspace, considering now-days technology is can be accessed to wireless connections, and would not need to be next to the grid

What "link" to cyberspace? Do you even know what the Cyberspace is? I wasn't sure when I read your post, so I had to go look it up, but it looks like the "cyberspace" is really just a cyberpunk term for the internet. Similar terms for a future network of computers that would one day span the entire globe, are things like "matrix", and some other things that I forget actually.

So here is the idea, would transporting a human from Here, to CyberSpace be possible?

No not really, CyberSpace doesn't really exist. Your question shows that you have very little understanding of what all these things are that it would be difficult to have a genuine discussion with you.

 

But, assuming that what you mean by "CyberSpace" is just data transmissions over media in networks or perhaps storage media, and not some fantasy world that's portrayed in the movies, then it really would depend on what you mean by "you"? Like, if your "consciousness" could be stored in digital media, would then that be "you"? Or, would be defining "you" as like ALL of the atoms in your body, and then that you travel through "CyberSpace" much like the guys on Star Trek where your original "you" would be ripped apart and made into nothing, and then your new "you" would be reassembled somewhere else?

 

It would be far more likely to down load a humans memories and personality into a computer and for that person to be able to continue his or her existence inside the computer as part of some sort of virtual reality. I see no reason to transport the real physical person into the computer, where would all the mass of the human go?

 

Not really, actually. With storing your atoms it seems, to me, the only problem would be having the storage to store all of your molecular information. That, and having the materials to recreate you available and a mechanism to actually do it. However, there are some things that humans are capable of doing, that would be absolutely impossible for a human to do.

 

Meaning, that there is no engineering, no research into AI, or anything else like that can actually make machines like humans. Certain things that we are capable of doing are Turing Impossible, meaning that a Turing Machine can't perform these tasks. And, if a Turin Machine can't do it, then neither can a real computer either.

 

Transportation may be possible, but from a purely physics point of view,transportation to cyberspace isnt an option. Cyberspace is purely virtual. it has no physical component. From the basic laws of matter, matter cannot be created of destroyed. So in essence, the idea of teleporting to cyberspace is in essence the same as disappearing from existence.

 

Yeah, but it isn't a physical "you" that would be teleported, but rather a conceptual "you" is transmitted over a medium and then received somewhere else. Maybe the Star Trek teleportation things is unreal, because they're materialized in the middle of anywhere. But, maybe between teleporting devices? Again, the receiving end has to be able to make you out of something and they'd probably have to kill the original you just so there isn't two you's running around.

[dragonstar57]

I had that dream once my soul left my body and I flew to the moon like Peter Panning

 

This ties in well with the other thread that was posted a week ago about dying in dreams. If you were to die in this machine would you die as well or maybe would the machine kill you intentionally just to give a more real experience? If it is the case of having been dematerialized I would suspect that any number of possibilities was possible and that it would be much like the Matrix .... Else I would suspect that the mind would get upset if the random deaths became too frequent!

it would most likely allow you to some kind of "play agian" option

but i doubt you could die in a virtual reality as long as you control it enough <turns gun into bouquet with mind>

[Zjar]

A few people asked what would happen to everything but the memories and/or working personality of a human downloaded into cyberspace (which is a broader term, potentially than the current internet, if seen, like 'virtual reality' as a concept and technology expected to extend into the future and grow).

 

We often assume that biological cells, muscles, nerves, cannot or will never be able to be downloaded, and assume that memories and rules or even fuzzy logic about a personality can be downloaded because they can be transduced into code representations, described in a separate electronic language.

 

Notice, however, that transduction and description in another language is very different from transubstantion, the changing of matter directly into another form. Which is why religions who use terms like that, like Christianity, in which some sects such as Catholicism believe that when an authorized priest blesses bread and wine, it becomes, in a literal or spiritually-inhabited sense, the "body and blood" of someone once alive, leads others (and some adherents) to call this magical. Some would say this of the translation of the humans into TRON's electronic space, and especially if they are sent in via laser beam.

 

However, instead of seeing this transduction of humans into TRON space as impossible, there are certainly people now who are working on making it possible, though guesstimates of how long it will take before they possible succeed in part or entirely vary greatly. These include the people in the popular Singularity movement spearheaded most publicly by Ray Kurzweil, and the related, broader transhumanist movement, which includes physicists just now calling for early theoretical and future practical work in femtotechnology, a few quanta smaller than nanotechnology. If and when we can actually design and build with subatomic particles, using them like bricks in architecture, the direct reuse of the messy body molecules of humans (and other species) may be actually translated and not just reproduced as a separate electronic model that's not really even a copy of the original, but a description. Not a real clone and not a real download.

 

If matter-porting downloads are possible (where Star Trek's transporter beam meet's TRON's laser) then re-uploads back into human living cellular form might be possible too. It will take really tiny tools and their technologies, far beyond our current means. It may even take very large new discoveries and grasp of subparticle physics.

 

So would you take the laser into TRONspace if it were available now? At least temporarily, and if you were guaranteed a way to take another laser or some other vehicle back into human body-scale life, reconstitute as a biological human, with your new experiences intact in you?

[khaled]

infinite storage, super processing units, and much more .. in a finite space, it's beyond all we know

[hillpa2]

I have thought about this alot and here are my thoughts on how it COULD be possible.

 

1st you would have to have a machine that whould scan all the atoms in your body in there EXACT

arrangment in 3 dimensions.

 

2nd you would have to have a computer that has anough memory to remember what the first machine scaned and also create a virtual enviroment with a physics engine in all 4 demensions and all the things requard for a human to live (ex. oxygen)

 

3rd after steps 1 and 2 you would have an exact templet of yourself in this virtual land

 

4th you then would probibly wont a way so this templet could come back which would involve matter

 

here are ideas for the 4th step

 

1st you can take matter, split the matter up into electrons and protons and rebuild the body using these electrons and protons

 

or if you dont want a clone of yourself

 

2nd do idea 1 with your body as the matter after step 3