Curvature caused by Photons too ?

[IM Egdall]

So in the standard model, how do photons cause gravity then? They don't interact with the Higg's field, yet scientists are still planning on building accelerators that use the gravity of very very high energy photon lasers to accelerate particles.

 

You are mixing two theories which are not compatible with each other.

 

The standard model refers to quantum mechanics. It includes the Higgs field but says nothing about gravity.

 

Gravity is described in general relativity -- where mass/energy is a source of gravity (which is the warping of space and time or spacetime curvature).

 

New theories like string theory seek to unite quantum mechanics with gravity. But they are still works in progress.

 

So for now we are stuck with 1) quantum mechanics with inherent uncertainty in nature and where the Higgs field gives particles their mass, and 2) general relativity with no uncertainty in nature and where mass/energy produces spacetime curvature. They are two separate and distinct views of the universe.

[questionposter]

You are mixing two theories which are not compatible with each other.

 

The standard model refers to quantum mechanics. It includes the Higgs field but says nothing about gravity.

 

Gravity is described in general relativity -- where mass/energy is a source of gravity (which is the warping of space and time or spacetime curvature).

 

New theories like string theory seek to unite quantum mechanics with gravity. But they are still works in progress.

 

So for now we are stuck with 1) quantum mechanics with inherent uncertainty in nature and where the Higgs field gives particles their mass, and 2) general relativity with no uncertainty in nature and where mass/energy produces spacetime curvature. They are two separate and distinct views of the universe.

 

Higg's bosons crown around an object more which in tern increases the distortion in the fabric of space? I can't imagine some hasn't though of that already, so I don't get why exactly gravity can't be explained.

[questionposter]

You are mixing two theories which are not compatible with each other.

 

The standard model refers to quantum mechanics. It includes the Higgs field but says nothing about gravity.

 

Gravity is described in general relativity -- where mass/energy is a source of gravity (which is the warping of space and time or spacetime curvature).

 

New theories like string theory seek to unite quantum mechanics with gravity. But they are still works in progress.

 

So for now we are stuck with 1) quantum mechanics with inherent uncertainty in nature and where the Higgs field gives particles their mass, and 2) general relativity with no uncertainty in nature and where mass/energy produces spacetime curvature. They are two separate and distinct views of the universe.

 

Higg's bosons crown around an object more which in tern increases the distortion in the fabric of space? Like maybe 1 higgs boson = .001 degrees of space curvature? I can't imagine some hasn't though of that already, so I don't get why exactly gravity can't be explained in the standard model.

Edited January 20, 2012 by questionposter

[IM Egdall]

Higg's bosons crown around an object more which in tern increases the distortion in the fabric of space? Like maybe 1 higgs boson = .001 degrees of space curvature? I can't imagine some hasn't though of that already, so I don't get why exactly gravity can't be explained in the standard model.

 

But in general relativity, all particles distort space and time (or spacetime). So in your construct, how do photons, which do not interact with the Higgs field, distort spacetime? In other words, Higg's boson's do not crowd around photons. Yet photons (and allother massless particles) are a source of gravity (distortion of spacetime). So I don't think your interesting idea works.

Edited January 20, 2012 by IM Egdall

[questionposter]

But in general relativity, all particles distort space and time (or spacetime). So in your construct, how do photons, which do not interact with the Higgs field, distort spacetime? In other words, Higg's boson's do not crowd around photons. Yet photons (and allother massless particles) are a source of gravity (distortion of spacetime). So I don't think your interesting idea works.

 

So is the answer that the standard model doesn't actually know?

[DrRocket]

AFAIK, one uses concave or convex to describe it, so it's from a local perspective. Curvature from both particles is concave. It does not cancel.

 

Concave and convex, with respect to curvature are terms that one typically encounters in calculus. They are not generally used to describe manifolds of dimension >1.

 

One needs to be a bit careful and precise when using the term curvature in general relativity, and with respect to manifolds in general. It does not necessarily mean what you think it means. The notion of curvature is actually rather sophisticated, and not easily described. First, Riemannian curvature is a tensor and the Einstein tensor of general relativity is derived from it. It has no simple explanation. There are actually several different notions of curvature tensors.

 

ALL curves are "flat" in the terminology of differential geometry. The usual right circular cylinder is also flat. There is such a thing as a flat torus, and a flat torus is one potential model for the curvature of space in cosmological models.

 

Also, you are correct in that energy, as well as mass (and in fact pressure and momentum flux) are all part of the stress-energy wich determines the Einstein curvature tensor of general relativity.

 

You are also correct in that curvature from different particles does not cancel -- and since curvature is a tensor field there is no reason to think that such cancellation is even reasonable, since (remember that general relativity is not a quantum theory) two particles cannot be in the same place.

 

As a particle and its anti-particle have the same rest mass/energy they enter into the stress -energy tensor in the same way. Also note that the curvature tensor is an invariant, independent of any local reference frame, and hence it is the invariant mass/energy and not the relativistic mass/enrgy that is important in the stress-energy tensor. So, before some asks, no you cannot increase the gravitational pull of something and create a black hole simply by viewing it from a reference frame in which it is moving very fast.

 

Bottom line -- general relativity relies on differential geometry and other sophisticated mathematical descriptions, that may not conform to one's naive intuitive notions. The only way to really understand GR is to invest the necessary time and intellectual capital to understand it in the mathematical framework in which it is formulated. Just Euclid tole told King Ptolemy with respect to geometry, "There is no royal road to general relativity."

[Widdekind]

... energy, as well as mass (and in fact pressure and momentum flux) are all part of the stress-energy which determines the Einstein curvature tensor of general relativity....

 

the curvature tensor is an invariant, independent of any local reference frame, and hence it is the invariant mass/energy and not the relativistic mass/energy that is important in the stress-energy tensor. So, before some asks, no you cannot increase the gravitational pull of something and create a black hole simply by viewing it from a reference frame in which it is moving very fast.

 

 

I do not understand -- "momentum flux" is an input, into the SET; yet "relativistic energy" is not ? I understand, that p₄² = E² - p² = m²(normalized units). So, m² is an input; and p is an input; but not E ? Momentum flux is "invariant", due to time dilation effects ?