Sayonara Posted February 4, 2003 Posted February 4, 2003 I already posted this here but I wanted to know what you guys thought too. When we left the first film, the majority of the human population is locked into a vast system that keeps their bodies alive and their minds active. As far as the occupants of the Matrix are concerned, they are all leading perfectly normal lives. So are they actually losing anything? The machines are not parasitising the humans, as the inference in the film suggests. The relationship is actually a mutualism, a kind of give-give symbiosis. The fact that this has been enforced for the humans is not relevant as it does not affect the trophisms of the system. Had humanity not started the war, it is entirely conceivable that a similar mutualism might have arisen quite naturally between the AI and the humans - such a system would be ideal for those suffering from crippling disabilities or terminal illness. What's the alternative to being in the Matrix? Well we've seen the Earth. It's a barren wasteland with no sunlight, ion storms in the thick toxic atmosphere, and no visible water, plants or animal life. There is little or no chance that it would sustain a population of millions of humans who just popped up one day looking for food. Therefore anyone trying to get people out of the Matrix is a baddie. Especially Morpheus. "Discuss"
Radical Edward Posted February 4, 2003 Posted February 4, 2003 it is still an enforced loss of freedom, but then arguably there is nothing wrong with it since we do the ame to cows, and our only claim to that being right is that we are a superior species, which in the case of the matrix, the superior species is the machines.
Sayonara Posted February 4, 2003 Author Posted February 4, 2003 Exactly. I'm starting to think Cypher had the right idea. Which is nicer to eat? Simulated steak, or rocks á la dust?
Sayonara Posted February 4, 2003 Author Posted February 4, 2003 Actually... I'm not sure the enforced loss of freedom would be that much of an issue. Certainly you'd be a bit miffed to find that your existence was a simulation and your body was actually in a tube somewhere powering a machine, but the flipside of this is that had humanity actually won the war, and the AI had not developed the Matrix, we'd have probably died out due to the massive devastation both sides caused to the planet. The machines' way didn't just save them, it saved us too. Perhaps you could conceivably argue that by this token our freedom was theirs to take? Or perhaps not so strongly worded - 'the least we can do in return for them saving the species, is to help continue theirs' would have been better.
Skye Posted February 4, 2003 Posted February 4, 2003 It's a good point. The ethic of Morpheus though is to win or die trying, it's not 'well we have a nice kind of symbiosis going on here let's not rock the boat.' This a matter of the plot, which you can't argue with really. But being speculative...If people found out that they were being used like this then the natural reaction would be to fight against it, no one likes being used or being subserviant (excluding members of the English parliament). Some might go with it though: the idea of E. coli living in my gut isn't appealing but I don't think of it much, and I'm happy they are helping me out. Of course then you have the prophesising of 'The One', which has no rational explanation, unless I missed something. It is just a story...
Sayonara Posted February 4, 2003 Author Posted February 4, 2003 Other than Morpheus's ethic, I agree. He must realise that he will win and die, or die trying. On a side note I don't think he is the leader of the resistance - he is just a ship captain who happens to believe in The One quite a lot. The reaction of most people would be to fight back, others would not wish to take the risk/face the outside. However Morpheus does make the point that most people in the Matrix will not be ready to be unplugged, that they might fight for their artificial world. This suggests that there is some plan as to how people might be removed from the Matrix, but not that anyone has any clue what to do with everybody afterwards. I'm sure a lot of people would initially want to rebel against the machines, but given some time to adjust to the idea most would probably choose the Matrix freely. It's not like the machines are taking anything away from them - in fact they are giving them 'normal lives'. Okay so they might not have any free will they can exercise in the real world, but what would that free will let them do? As far as they are concerned, in the Matrix they are free to live their lives as they please. It all comes down to the individual view of reality, which is subjective at best. The whole "The One" thing probably started off as an AI calculation as to the probability of minds in the neural network which could manipulate the program. This could have 'bled out' into the network itself, emerging as a kind of prophetic myth.... or some such pseudobabble I know it's just a story, but it's fun to speculate and analyse.
fafalone Posted February 4, 2003 Posted February 4, 2003 I'd rather not be in the matrix just because ordinary life is too damn boring. same applies to current situation too.
Skye Posted February 4, 2003 Posted February 4, 2003 Well it's not entirely bleak for rebels, Morpheus and others have survived for a while. I don't see people fighting for their artificial world, if you choose it you will want to live it up in the Matrix, not fight in the real world. Knowing that (another) reality exists would probably spoil the Matrix for alot of people. How enjoyable would science be if you knew it was all made up by robots? Fighting the robots would be fun in a heroic sort of way, it's the appeal of the movie. Just get bacteria to build a new atmosphere, it can't take that long can it?
fafalone Posted February 4, 2003 Posted February 4, 2003 It would take a couple centuries to teraform the Earth after what it likes like it does in the movie. Only places near the core of the Earth are still warm.
Sayonara Posted February 4, 2003 Author Posted February 4, 2003 It will be interesting to see Zion in the next film, especially with regards to the population it supports. As far as I can see from the trailers and promo material for Reloaded, Zion is basically caves. But the resistance must have technology for producing food, software, maintaining their ships and computers, producing power, defending against (or hiding from) the HKs, etc. I very much doubt Zion could support refugees from the Matrix, even for a short (well, a few hundred years) period while the Earth is terraformed. I'm not even sure the 'Martian model' terraforming idea would work, as there is already a thick and violent atmosphere in place...?
Piccolo Posted February 4, 2003 Posted February 4, 2003 You make a good point Sayonara. What you say defeats the purpose of neo trying to free the humans. What is the difference I mean they live the same life and then they die just like in real life and they are never aware of being connected to a machine.
PogoC7 Posted February 4, 2003 Posted February 4, 2003 Originally posted by Sayonara³ It's not like the machines are taking anything away from them - in fact they are giving them 'normal lives'. Okay so they might not have any free will they can exercise in the real world, but what would that free will let them do? Yes, good point. But how come the machines create unhappiness in the peoples AI world. If the machines allowed the people to have whatever they wanted (like the deal with the one dude in the 1st movie) and artifically basiced everyone esle in the perosns mind around them; it wouldn't make a difference anyway. It would only help the machines because once Morphus comes to take you out of the matrix; you do not want to leave. Plus, how come when Neo was let go of the matrix; he had fully developed muscles, eye sight, and other human functions. He also knew how to swim, even though he was "Using his muscles for the first time". I also saw the preview for the next two matrix movies and Zion is a "rave type atmoshpere". Not that cool. Although, the fight sences look very good. The first one made no sense too (had many holes in the plot), but they are still cool movies.
Sayonara Posted February 4, 2003 Author Posted February 4, 2003 Although Pogo is still on my ignore list, I just had to peek at his post. I have to ask... Have you even seen the Matrix? Agent Smith said that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect world for everybody, and that it failed miserably - which it no doubt would. After his disconnection Neo nearly drowned when he landed in the service tunnel, had to have reconstructive surgery on his atrophied muscles, and was nearly blinded by faint light.
PogoC7 Posted February 4, 2003 Posted February 4, 2003 O well, I must have Yawned :-0 during those parts. I have the movie on DVD and I guess the countless times I've watched it. I must have just forgotten a the little details.
fafalone Posted February 4, 2003 Posted February 4, 2003 Generally the more times you watch it the more details you remember. I've practically got the entire script memorized
Sayonara Posted February 4, 2003 Author Posted February 4, 2003 You should watch it again Pogo (you have come off my ignore list because you aren't annoying me any more )
PogoC7 Posted February 4, 2003 Posted February 4, 2003 It's like marginal costs. Once you get to a certain point (seen movie 100+), you start lossing profit (the essence of "The Matrix"). Plus, I'm in class, so I'm just killing time by writing posts.
Sayonara Posted February 4, 2003 Author Posted February 4, 2003 Pay attention to your class you naughty slacker. :nono:
PogoC7 Posted February 4, 2003 Posted February 4, 2003 hahaha, My teacher thinks I'm taking notes on the computer.
Sayonara Posted February 4, 2003 Author Posted February 4, 2003 You should be, right? You'll probaby need them at some point.
mister_me Posted February 4, 2003 Posted February 4, 2003 Don't all you dummies know that we've always been living in the Matrix? Duh.
PogoC7 Posted February 4, 2003 Posted February 4, 2003 I do write notes, but all work and no play, makes CONCO a very angry man.
Sayonara Posted February 4, 2003 Author Posted February 4, 2003 Originally posted by mister_me Don't all you dummies know that we've always been living in the Matrix? Duh. RTFQ.
blike Posted February 4, 2003 Posted February 4, 2003 RTFQ. LOL. -- I have nothing relevant to add to the post, i just thought that was funny.
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