Woxor Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I don't much like to like th play these games but... Alive' date=' I guess something that uses something to make energy for it self and can reproduce in some way.So I don't quite see yet how the non-living matter can become something alive yet. Ok, there are some chemicals and by chance they form this organism, but how is it alive? How does it start? Is it so simple that all it has to have is a little energy and be alive or something like that.[/quote'] You seem to be entertaining an idea similar to the "vital force" that was believed for some time to be a characteristic of organic molecules: the idea was that organic molecules cannot come from inorganic molecules, since the latter lack the "vital force" supposedly common to all of the former. (This was disproved by the inorganic synthesis of urea, if I'm not mistaken.) The idea probably stems from the anthropocentric love of being excepted from the laws of the universe, as does your conviction that life cannot come from non-life, in my opinion. There has never been any legitimate evidence of a vital force for organic molecules, nor of a vital force for living beings. If all the particles are in the right place, with the right velocities, they will compose a living organism. If an organism is dead, its composing parts are configured differently than when it is alive. There is no discrepancy in "life energy" other than the actual, physical energy that can be measured in joules. In short, I think you're imagining that there is a law of conservation of "life energy" or something to that effect. Even if you're not making that claim, your argument seems to be derived from that or a similar basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I don't much like to like th play these games but... Alive' date=' I guess something that uses something to make energy for it self and can reproduce in some way.So I don't quite see yet how the non-living matter can become something alive yet. Ok, there are some chemicals and by chance they form this organism, but how is it alive? How does it start? Is it so simple that all it has to have is a little energy and be alive or something like that.[/quote'] Combustion converts energy. Is fire alive? There are many examples of hybrid offspring that are sterile. Is a mule alive? LucidDreamer was right; I was trying to point out that it's not easy to define what is alive. Replicating chemical processes exist. I personally do not see that it's a big stretch to go from a chemical replication to life, even if we haven't reproduced it in the nanosecond (metaphorically speaking) we've been trying under controlled conditions. The Miller-Urey experiments show the folly of the "complex molecules can't form" argument that's based on incorrect probability calculations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorcerer Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 I don't much like to like th play these games but... Alive' date=' I guess something that uses something to make energy for it self and can reproduce in some way.So I don't quite see yet how the non-living matter can become something alive yet. Ok, there are some chemicals and by chance they form this organism, but how is it alive? How does it start? Is it so simple that all it has to have is a little energy and be alive or something like that.[/quote'] By that definition a flame is alive. I'm not criticising your intelligence, it really is a very hard definition to make... alot of people take it for granted. Edit: just read swans reply, seems we are psychicly entwined..... or rationally similar, I think swan will know which. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Demosthenes- Posted September 29, 2004 Author Share Posted September 29, 2004 How can something become alive? I don't get it, if anyone knows and would like to share and explain that would be very nice of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucidDreamer Posted September 29, 2004 Share Posted September 29, 2004 How can something become alive? I don't get it' date=' if anyone knows and would like to share and explain that would be very nice of you.[/quote'] To classify something as alive you just just determine if it meets a set of criteria. That criteria is defined by scientists. If we use this set of criteria: 1) ability to reproduce 2) ability to respond to environment 3) use energy to sustain itself So, proto-life had the ability to reproduce and the ability to use energy. Then it became alive once it evolved the ability to respond to its environment. Of course, it probably already had some ability to respond to its environment. So we could add a fourth criteria to alive such that 4) life contains DNA. So in this case proto-life would become alive once it evolved the use of DNA in replication. There is something special about life, but it is still just a natural phenomenon and it’s not an absolute singularity. Its boundaries are fuzzy. When did the reptilian ancestor of mammals first become a mammal? It probably evolved live birth through a series of stages. Which one exactly would be considered live birth? A platypus lays eggs. Is it truly a mammal? The boundaries are similarly blurred when it comes to classifying life. To truly understand this you're going to have to make a paradigm shift in the way you think about life. Increasingly more complex chemical systems based on carbon will evolve where the environment is fertile. When this system evolves to meet certain requirments, after it has reached a certain degree of complexity, we call it life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 Okay we've had fun making fun of "vital force" and my simple def. of something alive. I'm just trying to understand' date=' don't get defensive or anything, explain something to me! Stop spamming! Its no wonder some people are afraid to ask questions. I simply want to know how it all works can anyone help me! It's frustrating that I can't get an answer out of this. How can something become alive? I don't get it, if anyone knows and would like to share and explain that would be very nice of you.[/quote'] Less attitude would be nice. Honest inquiry isn't often couched in "I don't understand it, so it must be wrong" language. Nobody really knows the process. It's under investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Demosthenes- Posted September 30, 2004 Author Share Posted September 30, 2004 Thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorcerer Posted September 30, 2004 Share Posted September 30, 2004 Yeah, that's why it's so frustrating. It's just I don't understand it very well, and some of the threads frustrate me This has all been very helpful thanks. Well thats an about face.......you have about as much integrity as a yoyo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Demosthenes- Posted September 30, 2004 Author Share Posted September 30, 2004 What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorcerer Posted October 1, 2004 Share Posted October 1, 2004 Okay we've had fun making fun of "vital force" and my simple def. of something alive. I'm just trying to understand' date=' don't get defensive or anything, explain something to me! Stop spamming! Its no wonder some people are afraid to ask questions. I simply want to know how it all works can anyone help me! It's frustrating that I can't get an answer out of this. How can something become alive? I don't get it, if anyone knows and would like to share and explain that would be very nice of you.[/quote'] Read this, then this: Yeah, that's why it's so frustrating. It's just I don't understand it very well, and some of the threads frustrate me This has all been very helpful thanks. "Stop spamming!", noone spammed, everyone was trying to be helpful. "This has all been very helpful thanks", this is the about face. You seemed to maintain integrity with you frustration and lack of understanding though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Demosthenes- Posted October 1, 2004 Author Share Posted October 1, 2004 Sorry, that is the "about face", I'm not familar with the term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorcerer Posted October 2, 2004 Share Posted October 2, 2004 Sorry, that is the "about face", I'm not familar with the term. =Turn around...... also nicely tied in with two faced, I'm sorry I should be less subtle with my puns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Demosthenes- Posted October 3, 2004 Author Share Posted October 3, 2004 Well okay... Is this related to the subject? Or am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorcerer Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Well, no, but neither were most of the comment you made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Demosthenes- Posted October 5, 2004 Author Share Posted October 5, 2004 Thanks buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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