Wave function in your brain

[steevey]

When you observe something, it gets sent to specific places in your brain, but since your not observing or sensing every part of your brain, shouldn't particles be undetermined in your brain? I mean, there's not even any nerve cells directly on your brain.

[IM Egdall]

When you observe something, it gets sent to specific places in your brain, but since your not observing or sensing every part of your brain, shouldn't particles be undetermined in your brain? I mean, there's not even any nerve cells directly on your brain.

 

What do you mean by "undetermined" particles" in your brain?

[steevey]

What do you mean by "undetermined" particles" in your brain?

 

I mean particles are occupying space as waves rather than single points which we perceive.

[SMF]

I don't know much about particle physics, but I do know that brain function operates at, at least, two levels of complexity higher than this. What a single particle does will not have any effect whatsoever on any decisions made by a neural circuit. SM

[steevey]

I don't know much about particle physics, but I do know that brain function operates at, at least, two levels of complexity higher than this. What a single particle does will not have any effect whatsoever on any decisions made by a neural circuit. SM

 

How do you know that though? What about the electrical currents between neuron ends? Nothing is "observing" the charged particles when they are moving between the neurons, so the charged particles which carry brain information could take a wave form which may effect how signals are transferred all over the brain.

Edited February 8, 2011 by steevey

[lemur]

How do you know that though? What about the electrical currents between neuron ends? Nothing is "observing" the charged particles when they are moving between the neurons, so the charged particles which carry brain information could take a wave form which may effect how signals are transferred all over the brain.

The last interesting thing I heard about neural function involved the development of shielding that allows the nerve-signals to get transmitted faster and more isolated from each other as the body ages (forgive me if I am butchering this, it is second-hand knowledge that is pretty vague). It made me wonder, though, whether there are basic electronic-transmission issues that effect neural function. Is this not the case?

[steevey]

The last interesting thing I heard about neural function involved the development of shielding that allows the nerve-signals to get transmitted faster and more isolated from each other as the body ages (forgive me if I am butchering this, it is second-hand knowledge that is pretty vague). It made me wonder, though, whether there are basic electronic-transmission issues that effect neural function. Is this not the case?

 

With aging its more of a degrading process, where neurons become less susceptible to electrical signals.

[swansont]

How do you know that though? What about the electrical currents between neuron ends? Nothing is "observing" the charged particles when they are moving between the neurons, so the charged particles which carry brain information could take a wave form which may effect how signals are transferred all over the brain.

 

They are continually interacting. You aren't likely to maintain state coherence for any appreciable length of time.

[SMF]

Steevey, there are no electrical currents between neuron ends, this is not how it works. A neuron connection (a synapse) involves the release of a packet of molecules (neurotransmitter) that diffuse to the post-synaptic membrane of the neuron receiving the information and bind to specific neurotransmitter receptors. The binding of a neurotransmitter alters the receptor protein such that the membrane potential of the post-synaptic cell is changed. The membrane potential change can increase or decrease the probability that the post-synaptic cell will initiate an action potential that will be sent to the next neuron in the circuit.

 

It is very unlikely that the change in state of a single particle that participates in any of the molecules that make up the synaptic mechanism would affect neural function. This is because there are many thousands of neurotransmitter molecules and hundreds of receptors involved in any single synaptic event. Single synapses usually transmit trains of action potentials that can sum depending upon a time function, so any momentary timing alteration of a single action potential in a train that might occur from altering a single molecule among many is likely to be minimal to nonexistent. Further, any one neuron can have as many as 20K synapses on it and how a neuron responds to input is a nonlinear summation of the activity of all of the synapses it receives. And, the final nail in this coffin is the fact that if one were to find a way to specifically delete a single neuron from a brain, along with all of its multiple input and output connections, it would not have any detectable affect because of redundancy. SM

[steevey]

Steevey, there are no electrical currents between neuron ends, this is not how it works. A neuron connection (a synapse) involves the release of a packet of molecules (neurotransmitter) that diffuse to the post-synaptic membrane of the neuron receiving the information and bind to specific neurotransmitter receptors. The binding of a neurotransmitter alters the receptor protein such that the membrane potential of the post-synaptic cell is changed. The membrane potential change can increase or decrease the probability that the post-synaptic cell will initiate an action potential that will be sent to the next neuron in the circuit.

 

It is very unlikely that the change in state of a single particle that participates in any of the molecules that make up the synaptic mechanism would affect neural function. This is because there are many thousands of neurotransmitter molecules and hundreds of receptors involved in any single synaptic event. Single synapses usually transmit trains of action potentials that can sum depending upon a time function, so any momentary timing alteration of a single action potential in a train that might occur from altering a single molecule among many is likely to be minimal to nonexistent. Further, any one neuron can have as many as 20K synapses on it and how a neuron responds to input is a nonlinear summation of the activity of all of the synapses it receives. And, the final nail in this coffin is the fact that if one were to find a way to specifically delete a single neuron from a brain, along with all of its multiple input and output connections, it would not have any detectable affect because of redundancy. SM

 

I don't mean electrical currents in the sense like I'm running a current through a fire, I mean it more like information which is carried through charged particles and discharges. Between the ends of neurons when one neuron is sending information to end of another neuron, there is some type of electricity going down the axon of a neuron and to in between neurotransmitters of one neuron which then the other neuron picks up. The chemicals mainly just effect the strength of the signal and then in the other neuron, receive the signal, but I'm talking about the very tiny space in between the two neuron ends, not that actual event where one neuron picks up the signal of the other neuron.

 

In other words, I'm asking about the time after the signal leaves one neuron, but hasn't yet reached the next neuron end its destined for.

Edited February 9, 2011 by steevey

[SMF]

Steevey. I just gave you a simple explanation of a synapse. This is what you are talking about. It is the place between two neurons where information is transmitted from one to another. Neuron to neuron synaptic transmission is primarily a mechanical process. The neurotransmitter molecules are released by exocytosis. They travel to the next neuron by diffusion. They transmit information by a "lock and key" binding process with the next neuron. There are no electrical currents in this neurotransmission and no waves and particles, and if there were a minor disruption in the timing of a synaptic event it would have no effect. I described this already. SM

[steevey]

Steevey. I just gave you a simple explanation of a synapse. This is what you are talking about. It is the place between two neurons where information is transmitted from one to another. Neuron to neuron synaptic transmission is primarily a mechanical process. The neurotransmitter molecules are released by exocytosis. They travel to the next neuron by diffusion. They transmit information by a "lock and key" binding process with the next neuron. There are no electrical currents in this neurotransmission and no waves and particles, and if there were a minor disruption in the timing of a synaptic event it would have no effect. I described this already. SM

 

What about the molecules being a wave after the neuron has sent the information but before the next neuron fully receives the information?

Edited February 9, 2011 by steevey

[SMF]

Neurtransmitters are made of one or multiple amino acids made of a collection of atoms. These molecules are not particles. They are not traveling across synapses as a wave during any part of the transit, they just diffuse across the synaptic cleft. SM

[steevey]

Neurtransmitters are made of one or multiple amino acids made of a collection of atoms. These molecules are not particles. They are not traveling across synapses as a wave during any part of the transit, they just diffuse across the synaptic cleft. SM

 

Maybe I'm thinking of a particular type of cell that's not a neuron, because I know there's at least some cell that uses electrical signals similar to the way I described it. In which case, wouldn't the particles or molecules take a wave form?

Edited February 9, 2011 by steevey

[SMF]

This will be my last response. Cells operate at a much higher level of organization than particles, photons, or whatever. Ask the physicists here if a polypeptide or a calcium or sodium ion in a cell normally travels as a particle or a wave. What you are proposing appears to me to be equivalent to suggesting that I will be stabilized as a particle, rather than a wave, if somebody observes me crossing a street. SM

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

The electrical signals are macroscopic and likely wouldn't show significant quantum effects. Molecules may act as waves, but their wavelength would be incredibly tiny due to their mass, so they'd have virtually no wavelike properties.