Numerical Noise Generator

[khaled]

Numerical Noise Generator Based on Real-World Noise Simulation

 

The goal: Create a model for Serial\Parallel Noise Generator that can

be considered as a Random Number Generator, meant for the

impossibility of the analysis, by using hidden variables in Chaos theory ...

 

The idea: if group of n members have random speeches at random times

a receiver from a distance can only hear noise !

 

I have made a new way to create probabilistic hidden variables by simply

Independent Random Intersection Between Independent Systems ...

 

note: this model is abstract, can be implemented in different ways,

 

The papers are in the Attachments ...

NNGBRWNS.pdf

[GenericAssembler]

Thanks for the pdf file its nice read.

In windows though,altough its not as random as this method windows provides some cryptography secure methods you can use that depend on keystrokes mouse movement and other methods.

[khaled]

Thanks for the pdf file its nice read.

In windows though,altough its not as random as this method windows provides some cryptography secure methods you can use that depend on keystrokes mouse movement and other methods.

 

you might haven't understand this, the randomness that is usually generated are all using a system, the system

output distribution is random, thus it was considered a random generator. but in logic, those are not random.

 

the randomness, the random stream in my model is not generated from the components, in the meanwhile while

the system is in work, a hidden variable appears in the midst of the process somewhere in-between the intersecting

inner-components, that hidden variable is what outputs the random stream ...

 

This system is abstract and too complex, implementing this sounds easy, but actually difficult, that needs a mathematician

good in statistics, because the distribution of the output and the choice of the PRNGs ...

 

On the other hand, this model is not made for getting random numbers in a game, this is my first step to make

a cryptography model, where the unconditional cryptography becomes practical ...

[GenericAssembler]

you might haven't understand this, the randomness that is usually generated are all using a system, the system

output distribution is random, thus it was considered a random generator. but in logic, those are not random.

 

the randomness, the random stream in my model is not generated from the components, in the meanwhile while

the system is in work, a hidden variable appears in the midst of the process somewhere in-between the intersecting

inner-components, that hidden variable is what outputs the random stream ...

 

This system is abstract and too complex, implementing this sounds easy, but actually difficult, that needs a mathematician

good in statistics, because the distribution of the output and the choice of the PRNGs ...

 

On the other hand, this model is not made for getting random numbers in a game, this is my first step to make

a cryptography model, where the unconditional cryptography becomes practical ...

I see thanks for the explanations.

[the tree]

Honestly it just looks like a much more convoluted PRNG, using a chaotic system between the initial PRNG and the eventual output would indeed make it much harder to predict but it wouldn't make the output non-deterministic or genuinely random.

[khaled]

Honestly it just looks like a much more convoluted PRNG, using a chaotic system between the initial PRNG and the eventual output would indeed make it much harder to predict but it wouldn't make the output non-deterministic or genuinely random.

 

This depends on the implementation of design,

 

We can implement this design to create a system that makes a real non-deterministic random output ...

 

the original suggested implementation suggest that all operations and all random selection

and distribution are tied to the input, because if this is not the case this generator won't be

Secure, and thus it's not applicable in Security Field ...

[the tree]

We can implement this design to create a system that makes a real non-deterministic random output ...

Simply put, I'm not going to believe that without good reason. Deterministic algorithm, deterministic input - the output is only going to be one thing.

[insane_alien]

i'm with the tree.

 

there is no algorithm that can take a deterministic source and somehow decouple it from everything.

 

if you had such an algorithm why not just feed it a string of zeros every time as it should still return different values every time.

[khaled]

i'm with the tree.

 

there is no algorithm that can take a deterministic source and somehow decouple it from everything.

 

if you had such an algorithm why not just feed it a string of zeros every time as it should still return different values every time.

 

Let me explain this, to make a non-deterministic implementation, we make the distribution\selection for the components

to be decided by an independent component that has nothing to do with the system or the input ...

 

For example, we can use Clocks that works in the system all the time, the clocks are not related to real clocks,

and they synchronize to each others in a way that makes them in continuous irregularity ...

 

I hope you get the idea ...

[the tree]

Not at all. Clocks are just as deterministic as any other non-random input and from some points of view weaker than a decent PRNG.

[khaled]

our opinions will vary .. but in simulation & modelling field, stochastic output is possible ...

[imatfaal]

Agree with the Tree - at the back of my brain I have a memory of a cypher being broken because of the cypher's partial reliance on an internal clock, will try and dig out a reference.

[the tree]

our opinions will vary .. but in simulation & modelling field, stochastic output is possible ...

I don't really see what opinions have got to do with it. I think that perhaps you're confused between the concepts of nondeterministic and convincingly pseudorandom.

 

Protip: contrary to belief, elipses have no gramatical place at the end of a sentence and don't make you appear any more profound.

[imatfaal]

If it is not too metaphysical a question - can anything truly random be generated?

 

BTW tree that signature

Protip: contrary to belief, elipses have no gramatical place at the end of a sentence and don't make you appear any more profound

 

is one hell of a good example of Skitt's Law/Muphry's Law - where is it from?

[the tree]

It's not from anywhere, what was my error?

[imatfaal]

ooops - foot in mouth feeling. Grammatical has two Ms and ellipses has two Ls

[the tree]

So they do, my bad.

[khaled]

First of all, I don't like different discussions start in my thread ...

 

Anyway, about the clocks system, our system has nothing to do with the clocks, it just take readings

at the time when a stream is generated using our system .. so, those clocks are outside our system borders ...

 

About the clocks system, I will publish that paper once it's published in a conference ...

[the tree]

First of all, I don't like different discussions start in my thread ...

Oh heavens, would you look at that? We do try, I swear.

Anyway, about the clocks system, our system has nothing to do with the clocks, it just take readings at the time when a stream is generated using our system .. so, those clocks are outside our system borders ...

Cool, so an extra deterministic input for the deterministic algorithm with a deterministic output.

About the clocks system, I will publish that paper once it's published in a conference ...

In the Conference Proceedings of the Royal Society of Extraneous Punctuation, no doubt...

If it is not too metaphysical a question - can anything truly random be generated?

Yes. The QM folks will doubt be all to enthusiastic to explain indeterminacy and non-causality and how we know there aren't any hidden variables involved. Although in mathematics there are slightly lower standards for randomness, they are to do with information and complexity theory.

[Xittenn]

Khaled,

 

I don't understand the analogy

 

 

The system is based on a simulation-methodology,

taking a simple example that, if there are group of N humans

talking in groups, although their speeches are logical, if you

stand on a distance from the group, all you can hear is the

intersection of their speeches, which is what we know as

noise.

 

 

as it somehow relates to non-deterministic behaviours. In your paper you suggest that this represents your chaos room. You even state in this paragraph that the speeches are logical and they only become incoherent upon intersection. This incoherence is a product of the receptors inability to process the multitude of signals. I don't understand how this refers back to a chaos room and how it produces a secure method of information transmission. If the complexity of the output is too great for anyone to understand then the recipient will also not understand. If the transmitter and the recipient both share a common key and the data is convoluted based on this key and the process is transitive then how is this non-deterministic? Else I can only see a system whereupon the recipient is also unable to decipher the transmitted data. This all sounds very paradoxical and I'm sure there are well formulated arguments on this topic.

 

Analogy:

 

If I transmit a message to someone else over laser it is secure as long as the data is transmitted at the level of the photon and no one else intercepts it?????????????????????

 

That still wouldn't work because the per photon data would be just as illegible to the recipient...

[khaled]

Khaled,

 

I don't understand the analogy

 

 

 

as it somehow relates to non-deterministic behaviours. In your paper you suggest that this represents your chaos room. You even state in this paragraph that the speeches are logical and they only become incoherent upon intersection. This incoherence is a product of the receptors inability to process the multitude of signals. I don't understand how this refers back to a chaos room and how it produces a secure method of information transmission. If the complexity of the output is too great for anyone to understand then the recipient will also not understand. If the transmitter and the recipient both share a common key and the data is convoluted based on this key and the process is transitive then how is this non-deterministic? Else I can only see a system whereupon the recipient is also unable to decipher the transmitted data. This all sounds very paradoxical and I'm sure there are well formulated arguments on this topic.

 

Analogy:

 

If I transmit a message to someone else over laser it is secure as long as the data is transmitted at the level of the photon and no one else intercepts it?????????????????????

 

That still wouldn't work because the per photon data would be just as illegible to the recipient...

 

this model is not for transmitting data, it's to create a random\pseudo-random stream ...

 

which can be secure (tied to input), for security use .. cryptography\hashing

or not secure to use as a random resource ...

[Xittenn]

this model is not for transmitting data, it's to create a random\pseudo-random stream ...

 

which can be secure (tied to input), for security use .. cryptography\hashing

or not secure to use as a random resource ...

 

So if this is a random/pseudo-random key generator that is used as part of a hashing table what happens to the key once the hash has been fulfilled? How is the same key regenerated to make the process transitive? If I'm still missing your point could you please expand on your explanation?

 

I mean the most obvious answer is the key is stored on premises for future use, I'm just investigating your feature set.

 

Also if it is just that why not use natural phenomena that is already deemed non-deterministic as your chaos room and to achieve your goals? That is instead of claiming to be capable of generating a non-deterministic algorithm.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Xittenn

[khaled]

So if this is a random/pseudo-random key generator that is used as part of a hashing table what happens to the key once the hash has been fulfilled? How is the same key regenerated to make the process transitive? If I'm still missing your point could you please expand on your explanation?

 

I mean the most obvious answer is the key is stored on premises for future use, I'm just investigating your feature set.

 

Also if it is just that why not use natural phenomena that is already deemed non-deterministic as your chaos room and to achieve your goals? That is instead of claiming to be capable of generating a non-deterministic algorithm.

 

it's a problem of understanding why is this and why is that .. it's like if in physics when the physician ignore a parameter

or set some variables to be static while it's dynamic in real-world, give things patterns, and the simulations goes with

a statistical distributions that are conditionally good for a period of time ...

 

maybe I should say, this is not a total-randomness, it's a conditional-randomness .. and the algorithm cannot be non-deterministic

in essence of steps, but the output can be ...

 

anyway, you might be right .. this is Mister Edison twelfth lamb that works not,

it's not really practical too, with all that complexity ...

[Xittenn]

it's not really practical too, with all that complexity ...

 

What complexity?

 

- class of ciphers

- nondeterministic input(your hidden variable)

- Metropolis Random Walk(PRNG)

 

Where the system quality is still limited by the class of ciphers but is made more convoluted by the nondeterministic choice in cipher(Where the choice is a member of the union of the class of ciphers where each cipher is differentiated by the statements under which they are composed.) Metropolis takes in an 'initial state' variable, the choice of this variable can be nondeterministic and the most obvious example of this would be the human choice(firm believer in free will *grin*.) This is still an example of a system in where a key is generated and this key needs to be retained should the results wish to be considered practical.

 

The chaos room suggests a direct reordering is taking place and that brings me back to my previous points which, at least to me, are pretty clear and obvious. The use of a statistician under the context I took it suggests order independence and this doesn't make sense because the consequence of this would simply be an open wound with all invited?

 

Funny place to make statements if one is so ready to shy away from conversation. I like stories and am all ears!

[khaled]

What complexity?

 

- class of ciphers

- nondeterministic input(your hidden variable)

- Metropolis Random Walk(PRNG)

 

Where the system quality is still limited by the class of ciphers but is made more convoluted by the nondeterministic choice in cipher(Where the choice is a member of the union of the class of ciphers where each cipher is differentiated by the statements under which they are composed.) Metropolis takes in an 'initial state' variable, the choice of this variable can be nondeterministic and the most obvious example of this would be the human choice(firm believer in free will *grin*.) This is still an example of a system in where a key is generated and this key needs to be retained should the results wish to be considered practical.

 

The chaos room suggests a direct reordering is taking place and that brings me back to my previous points which, at least to me, are pretty clear and obvious. The use of a statistician under the context I took it suggests order independence and this doesn't make sense because the consequence of this would simply be an open wound with all invited?

 

Funny place to make statements if one is so ready to shy away from conversation. I like stories and am all ears!

 

The idea came from reality, the feed room symbolize the entities speeches, the chaos room

symbolize the intersection, and the output room symbolize the distant person's ear ...

 

but to make a better model, we would instead of symbolizing every speaker as a PRNG,

we make them as an independent entities such as AI agents ...

 

I suggested that better model, because in this model we don't really make a hidden

variable .. but we fabricate it, but if we make independent automata then the hidden variable

will be created without fabricating it ...