Onboard the Quest. .Were they simply rich, nuts, or both?

[rigney]

Since no one seems to be discussing the issue, thought I'd toss it out for conjecture. Were these people, right, wrong or simply stupid? But then, who gives a rats ass? I just want an opinion. Me, without an army onboard for protection, no way would I get involved in those waters off Somalia for anything. It's a dangerous place with a mixed cultural bag. I feel for the deceased and their families, and a shot to the cranium can't be a fun thing. So, if you're going to give out bibles, best you do it on land. These guys are pirates and really don't give a damned about you or your religion. And the thirteen pirates captured? Manacle their hands behind them, and at twenty foot intervals, put a double knotted noose around each neck, get a thousand yards off shore with a good intide running and kick their asses overboard! If others paddle out to save them, "snuff" their asses also. We may lose a few good idiots who have gone into those waters, but piracy would soon be a thing of the past. Being genteel just doesn't make it.

Edited February 23, 2011 by rigney

[Pangloss]

An ABC News story I saw the other day claimed that the pirates have expanded their operating sphere to an area about the size of the continental US. If that's true then it's going to be even harder to patrol those waters and prevent more kidnappings. The international effort thus far has been pretty good, IMO, and an easy sell with national governments looking to give their Navys more experience. But we may be moving beyond a simple enforcement solution.

 

Is there any chance the recent uprisings in various ME countries could have a long-term positive impact on Somalia? If strong democracies arise in those nations, could they decide to help lift their neighbor into a 21st century economy? Or is that a pipe dream?

[rigney]

An ABC News story I saw the other day claimed that the pirates have expanded their operating sphere to an area about the size of the continental US. If that's true then it's going to be even harder to patrol those waters and prevent more kidnappings. The international effort thus far has been pretty good, IMO, and an easy sell with national governments looking to give their Navys more experience. But we may be moving beyond a simple enforcement solution.

 

Is there any chance the recent uprisings in various ME countries could have a long-term positive impact on Somalia? If strong democracies arise in those nations, could they decide to help lift their neighbor into a 21st century economy? Or is that a pipe dream?

 

I sincerely hope not!. And probably sounding like an old bastard with an ax to grind, you may thank of us elders as a bit crazy and senile, and you may be right. But to me, brutality can only be counteracted with "more than equal brutality". Is this such a case? Is it fair and just? No, only sensible and necessary. If the shoe were on the other foot, these people would desimate our nation in a heart beat. We merely have to get their attention, and demonstrate that, if you kill even one of us, we will destroy you in toto. Not your nation, not your family, "but you as the individual, you, the pirate"! Unless we realize and accentuate such a forcefulness, we're in no better shape than a guy doing life in stir. We're behind bars! and held captive by our own emotions and indiscretions. Our military is brave, honorable and have the tools to do any job. But what drives or doesn't drive them to completion, are weak administrators. Edited February 23, 2011 by rigney

[imatfaal]

An ABC News story I saw the other day claimed that the pirates have expanded their operating sphere to an area about the size of the continental US. If that's true then it's going to be even harder to patrol those waters and prevent more kidnappings. The international effort thus far has been pretty good, IMO, and an easy sell with national governments looking to give their Navys more experience. But we may be moving beyond a simple enforcement solution.

 

Is there any chance the recent uprisings in various ME countries could have a long-term positive impact on Somalia? If strong democracies arise in those nations, could they decide to help lift their neighbor into a 21st century economy? Or is that a pipe dream?

 

I think I would argue the fact that the "international effort thus far has been pretty good"; in the last two weeks five vessels were taken, four people killed, and over 80 kidnapped. At the moment well over 600 seafarers are held for ransom, taken with 30 vessels. The area of danger is enormous, most of the Arabian Sea, and the east coast of Africa from Red Sea to Madagascar. I wouldn't go as far as Rigney - but some form of removal from area and punishment needs to be used on captured pirates; at present most are returned to Somalia to be prosecuted there and this really isn't working. I can really only see the solution coming from some form of maritime exclusion zone being enacted along the Somalian Coast - but this is impossible for a country that relies on fishing to a large extent

[lemur]

The open seas seem to be stereotypically characterized as the providence of exceedingly violent people. Presumably the intent is to scare all peace-loving people out of traversing the oceans (because there is big money in keeping sea-faring the providence of a power elite?). Either way, I don't think it is stupid to give bullies the benefit of the doubt, although I wouldn't necessarily want to risk it myself. The fact of the matter is, however, that there are numerous threats touted globally that are smokescreens designed to scare people away from certain areas for one reason or another. So if you get tired of operating within the narrow constraints of deterrence through intimidation, you have to either take the risk that threats can turn out to be real or you have to go around exhibiting pre-emptive aggression, which makes others see you as the bully/threat. Then it is just a matter of time before some other bully beats you at your own game and takes your place, which is bound to happen with these infamous Somali pirates if it isn't already. After all, there's no reason to assume this is the same network of people committing these violent acts. For all we know, there is an ongoing competition to overtake this territory by beating the existing winners at their own game and then taking the game over for yourself.

[imatfaal]

Lemur - what are you trying to say? Your post makes little sense.

[Zolar V]

Why dont we just park several countries navies around the somolian coastline? in effect there wouldn't be any vessels leaving somolia for other than fishing activites. We would also have our marintine policing forces on station and actively participating in hindering any pirate activity. No matter who you are, your going to need to port sometime. if we have a near "blockade" in effect, pirates who are in port wont be able to leave and pirates who are out of port wont be able to dock.

 

this of course is going to naturally lead to modifying and smuggling of arms through our proposed blockade in a similar fasion to how drug smugglers get drugs across the US MEXICO border (top side) using vehicles.

[Zolar V]

Why dont we just park several countries navies around the somolian coastline? in effect there wouldn't be any vessels leaving somolia for other than fishing activites. We would also have our marintine policing forces on station and actively participating in hindering any pirate activity. No matter who you are, your going to need to port sometime. if we have a near "blockade" in effect, pirates who are in port wont be able to leave and pirates who are out of port wont be able to dock.

 

this of course is going to naturally lead to modifying and smuggling of arms through our proposed blockade in a similar fasion to how drug smugglers get drugs across the US MEXICO border (top side) using vehicles.

[lemur]

Lemur - what are you trying to say? Your post makes little sense.

How should I explain except to say re-read it?

[Pangloss]

Why dont we just park several countries navies around the somolian coastline?

They do. It's called Combined Task Force 150.

 

But Somalia has about 3,300 kilometers of coastline, and once they range out from that coastline (say, to do some perfectly innocent fishing), they dramatically increase the amount of area that has to be watched. If that ABC News article was correct and their actual range is the same as the area of the continental United States, that's 770 million hectares. Ouch.

 

And it has to be monitored continuously. Ships don't operate continuously, they rotate between roughly 1/3rd of their time on patrol and 2/3rds of their time in port. (Actually that's just the US with its hyperactive military -- as I understand it most countries are more like 10%/90% -- in port most of the time. Active duty is many times more expensive than port/base duty.) And the United States, again the biggest and most active military in the world, only has 289 ships.

 

That having been said, I would guess that a permanent aircraft carrier rotation (essentially three carrier task force groups rotating through the CTF over the course of a year) could cover a significant amount of the search area. If memory serves they have an effective surface radar search profile of something on the order of 500 kilometers in radius. That's a pretty big swath of the problem area. Carriers deployments are the most expensive of all -- again going by memory here I believe one carrier group costs over a billion dollars a year to operate. But they're deployed anyway, so it's really an opportunity cost -- are they where you need them to be, etc. And 11 is a lot of carrier groups -- you'd think they could keep one on station.

 

I don't know offhand if any carrier groups have done pirate duty. There are some not too far away, of course.

 

in effect there wouldn't be any vessels leaving somolia for other than fishing activites. We would also have our marintine policing forces on station and actively participating in hindering any pirate activity. No matter who you are, your going to need to port sometime. if we have a near "blockade" in effect, pirates who are in port wont be able to leave and pirates who are out of port wont be able to dock.

I don't believe Somalia is under quarantine, by the way, but I could be mistaken.

[Zolar V]

damn, i was under the impression thar the somalian coastline wasn't too horribly large.

if it is indeed that large, then we could just station troops/ nato police forces on land to act as the deterrance.

Better port authorities, inspections and so forth would stimmie the flow of pirates to and from land. I understand that they can dock in places other than ports, but it would be much harder for them.

 

In essence greater vigilance and policing will deter pirating. You don't see any pirates based in US ports,or UK ports, or FR,GR,SW,SP or any ports really that have a moderately democratig goverment.

[rigney]

I wouldn't go as far as Rigney - but some form of removal from area and punishment needs to be used on captured pirates;

"NEITHER WOULD I". Other than I'm a syncopated old bastard with a visceral attitude. Destroy a member of my family without just cause, and you die, simple as that. Not put in jail with three squares a day and a bed to sleep on. No, "DEAD". I don't want to even give you time for a damned shower. Is my mind filled with hatred? I pray not. We butcher thousands of innocencts each year and call it "Family Planning" Do I recall a system we once had, but seem to have forgot? Yes! Get it back people. For without that understanding, our justice system has gone to hell. You simply can't allow innocent people to be murdered indisciminately and let the murderers walk. That is, unless it's the plank, up to the gallows, or to the chair. The needle is just too, too kind.

Edited February 25, 2011 by rigney

[lemur]

Is my mind filled with hatred? I pray not. Is my understanding something of a system we once had and seem to have forgot? Yes! Get it back people. For without this understanding, our justice system has gone to hell. You simply can't allow innocent people to be murdered indisciminately and let the murderers walk. Unless it's the plank, the rope or the chair. The needle is too kind.

I don't think your mind is necessarily filled with hatred, though only you would truly know that. It's my impression moreso that people who think like you do have been exposed to a great deal of propaganda that depicts life as a constant battle of "kill or be killed," "dominate or be dominated" etc. However accurate or inaccurate this may be, it leaves no room for democratic discourse. In reality, force even deadly force has to be used when necessary to combat equal levels of force. However, when you maintain such a strong will to death for killers, you yourself get pulled into a psychological orgy of death and killing. You would expect that this orgy in your head would stop when the killers or whomever you are enraged at is dead and cold but it won't because it emanates from a deeper level. That's why war veterans can have post-trauma issues, i.e. because they can't let go of the war. Personally, I think they're right in a sense that the issues of the war they were involved with will always continue in some form and require some level of struggle (for me it's authoritarianism, for example), but it helps your peace-of-mind to be able to release yourself from the struggle and resist letting it ignite violent rage within you when incited. So, I can see how hearing about senseless killing could re-ignite your rage about the killing of innocents; but I also think you should realize that enraging you is part of what those people achieve by their violence, and you are giving them power over you in a way by allowing them to get to you. Maybe I've just been watching too much Star Wars lately with Luke getting drawn to the dark side by instigating his anger.

 

 

 

[rigney]

I was gonna jump outa here, run to Taco Bell and get some burritos, but saw your reply and a foot of snow outside, and decided it was a bad idea. Yes, I'm an old fart with a lot of demerits to go along with the time. Mean? Begrudging? Can't say I would like to be saddled with such a description. Vengeful? Well, you read my disposition, and if the shoe fits, I simply have to wear it. "I wish the world" could look at things in the simple manner many of you folks do. Wish I could!, sorry.

Edited February 25, 2011 by rigney

[Pangloss]

damn, i was under the impression thar the somalian coastline wasn't too horribly large.

Yeah it doesn't seem that way, but that's the problem of Africa throwing the scale off for everything in and around it on the map. This perspective kinda helps a bit -- you see it on a lot of Web sites but I don't know how accurate it is. If it's accurate then what brings it into perspective for me is that Somalia's coastline is roughly on the order of the American Eastern Seaboard.

 

[imatfaal]

Love that pseudomap Dr Pangloss - do you have a link for the originating site please?

[Pangloss]

I found it here:

http://michaelcriner.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/true_size_of_africa.png

 

But it's become a popular thing to show around the Web recently; I just did a search on "countries fit inside africa" on Google Images to bring it up. I think it was a story that ran in the news last fall. I dimly recall a piece on ABC News about it.

[rigney]

I found it here:

http://michaelcriner.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/true_size_of_africa.png

 

But it's become a popular thing to show around the Web recently; I just did a search on "countries fit inside africa" on Google Images to bring it up. I think it was a story that ran in the news last fall. I dimly recall a piece on ABC News about it.

 

Somalia, with over 1,300 miles of coast line.

[lemur]

Mean? Begrudging? Can't say I would like to be saddled with such a description. Vengeful? Well, you read my disposition, and if the shoe fits, I simply have to wear it. "I wish the world" could look at things in the simple manner many of you folks do. Wish I could!, sorry.

Is there a tone of condescendence in calling an attitude other than your own vengefulness "simple?" Speaking for myself, a vengeful attitude is easy to hold when you are young and everything seems so simple in black and white. As I aged, I found that what seemed like simple issues had more complexity and it was nonsense to always just blame those who appear powerful and romanticize the innocence of those who pass as powerless. The world is filled with facades, lies, and other forms of deception - used by selfish people who have no qualms with ignoring or denying social exploitation and their position of privilege in its spoils. When you hear the crocodile tears cried by the same people who never cared about anyone who had it worse than them when they were on top, it is easy to feel vengeance but you can destroy yourself (and potentially others as well) with such vengeance so you have to temper it with reason. I don't know if you can relate to what I'm saying, but I would hope you would recognize it on some level since you have a lot more life experience (I think) than me or many others posting in this forum.

[rigney]

Is there a tone of condescendence in calling an attitude other than your own vengefulness "simple?" Speaking for myself, a vengeful attitude is easy to hold when you are young and everything seems so simple in black and white. As I aged, I found that what seemed like simple issues had more complexity and it was nonsense to always just blame those who appear powerful and romanticize the innocence of those who pass as powerless. The world is filled with facades, lies, and other forms of deception - used by selfish people who have no qualms with ignoring or denying social exploitation and their position of privilege in its spoils. When you hear the crocodile tears cried by the same people who never cared about anyone who had it worse than them when they were on top, it is easy to feel vengeance but you can destroy yourself (and potentially others as well) with such vengeance so you have to temper it with reason. I don't know if you can relate to what I'm saying, but I would hope you would recognize it on some level since you have a lot more life experience (I think) than me or many others posting in this forum.

 

Golly gee! at seventy eight, I hope you're right! Since I'm not onto platitudenal replies, don't hold your breath. Told you exactly what I meant, so don't push it, unless you're willing to put your bra, dress and shoe size on the forum. Edited February 25, 2011 by rigney

[Moontanman]

Since no one seems to be discussing the issue, thought I'd toss it out for conjecture. Were these people, right, wrong or simply stupid?

 

I'm going to have to say being unlucky is big part of it, I don't really think religion plays into this at all, these guys are pirates they prey on the vulnerable. It's going to take some sort of military presence to solve this i am sure.

[lemur]

Golly gee! at seventy eight, I hope you're right! Since I'm not onto platitudenal replies, don't hold your breath. Told you exactly what I meant, so don't push it, unless you're willing to put your bra, dress and shoe size on the forum.

"Don't push it?" I guess my tone wasn't deferential to convince you I was being respectful. I was trying to seriously address your post from an emotional point of view that I thought was sympathetic to yours. I guess that matters less to you than putting me in my place by saying no to "push it," though.

 

 

 

[rigney]

"Don't push it?" I guess my tone wasn't deferential to convince you I was being respectful. I was trying to seriously address your post from an emotional point of view that I thought was sympathetic to yours. I guess that matters less to you than putting me in my place by saying no to "push it," though.

 

Deferential? If you've followed my discussions anywhere on this forum, you know I'm not the sharpest nail in the keg. But when I feel I'm being 'coat hangered", (screwed with); I simply become hostile. Not physically hostile of course, but emotionally so. I don't know how to moderate simplicity, since that is my mind set. If I read you wrong and was offernive, I apologise. Just be easy on this old boy and give him rhyme and reason he can understand. The topic was more of what I was trying to stress. Four innocent people murdered, why? Edited February 26, 2011 by rigney

[lemur]

Deferential? If you've followed my discussions anywhere on this forum, you know I'm not the sharpest nail in the keg. But when I feel I'm being 'coat hangered", (screwed with); I simply become hostile. Not physically hostile of course, but emotionally so. I don't know how to moderate simplicity, since that is my mind set. If I read you wrong and was offernive, I apologise. Just be easy on this old boy and give him rhyme and reason he can understand. The topic was more of what I was trying to stress. Four innocent people are dead, why?

Ok, usually when I read your claims to simplicity and ignorance I just take it as posturing, but all I can say is that I was trying to respond on a deep level to your other post. As for the question of why innocent people are dead, read the story of Jesus. These people are Christian so I'm sure they would want their deaths to inspire people to study Jesus. You can also watch the movie, Passion of Christ. The point is to focus not on Jesus but on why people persecuted him. That will give you some pretty good insight into how evil does its work. Murderous pirates are just soldiers like the ones that whipped, taunted, and ultimately killed Jesus. Jesus prayed, "forgive them they know not what they do," but for centuries self-proclaimed 'Christians' persecuted anyone identified as Jewish out of the belief that Jews shouldn't be forgiven for Jesus' death (and thus that they were responsible on the basis of ethnic identity). Anyway, I'm not trying to derail the thread to talk about Jesus, the Roman soldiers, and the Jews. I just mention it since I think these people who were killed would have appreciated it, if they were indeed Christians as I've heard.

Edited February 26, 2011 by lemur

[rigney]

Murderous pirates are just soldiers like the ones that whipped, taunted, and ultimately killed Jesus.

 

I can't fault your convictions since you seem quite religious, and thats your business. But you see, vermin such as this cannot in any fashion be defined as soldiers. That's why I suggested when we catch them, we snuff them. People who stoop to such a low level of depravity and humanity deserves nothing more than what they give out. Now, were these guys guilty only by association? As a conspiracy group? Or a cadre, far mor sinister? Does it matter? "Hell No". Right now we have several of them in custody. We can't kill them so long after the fact. If so, then we share the same guilt as this murdering bunch of bastards who initiated the piracy. So, what do we do with them? I know, let's put them in jail where we can feed, clothe, bathe and buy them school books. And when we do send them home, which we will; there will be a more educated bunch of pirate to deal with. I would say something more constructive, but you know me by now.

Edited February 26, 2011 by rigney