doG Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Heck, I'm an atheist and the whole damn war on Christmas offends me. Christmas trees are Christmas trees, not Holiday Trees. Christmas lights and decorations are just that. Frankly I think Jesus was a fine human being and we'll celebrate his birthday at my house just the same. Granted my girlfriend and her son are christian but it's not Jesus I don't believe in, I simply lack any belief that he was/is a god. I personally avoid places that embrace the 'Holiday...' this or that to avoid offending someone because they offend me because they give the impression that its people like me they're trying not to offend. I don't personally know any atheists that are offended by Christmas and the whole war on Christmas seems to me an effort to paint non-believers as thin skinned and that's an insult! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Frankly I think Jesus was a fine human being and we'll celebrate his birthday at my house just the same. So, you will be holding festivities somewhere in April, I presume? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Tripolation Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 So, you will be holding festivities somewhere in April, I presume? Touching on this interesting point, isn't the fact that we Christians celebrate the birth of our savior on a pagan holiday mean we are inclusive in some ways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Sure, why not. Nice point. I was more lamenting those who cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war at the mere thought that some people choose to say happy holidays instead. (although, a stronger point would be that they merely absorbed the pagan traditions so as to make the assimilation of new converts easier and more successful) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Tripolation Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 (although, a stronger point would be that they merely absorbed the pagan traditions so as to make the assimilation of new converts easier and more successful) I understand that. That's common knowledge amongst Christians. But by not demanding we move our holiday to a more historically accurate date, aren't we sort of celebrating tolerance? I'm just tossing out ideas here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doG Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 So, you will be holding festivities somewhere in April, I presume? Naa, the traditional day is fine with me and the Christians in my home would prefer it. Seems like April was when my wife used to have me paint eggs for the kids, or help them do it as they got older. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 But by not demanding we move our holiday to a more historically accurate date, aren't we sort of celebrating tolerance? I'm just tossing out ideas here. I think it's possible, but certainly a stretch. I'm fairly confident that most who feel strongly are not reinforcing their beliefs with the idea of inclusion, or celebrating on this date because they want to involve diverse backgrounds and include differing beliefs. IMO, they're celebrating deep and total surrender to a magical sky pixie and seething with near-hatred at the fact that not everyone shares their worldview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 In fact, I see more intolerance on this site toward Christians, than I've ever seen anywhere exhibited by Christians. Well that I find impossible to believe. You should stay in more. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nassar Jad Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Yes, in truth, these holidays are originally atheist, to be precise, it would be weird for believer to celebrate them, that includes christmas witch is the roman holiday of the sun, and easter and many others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzzwood Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Religious people vulch off our scientific ideas, scientists vulch off religious holidays. Fair trade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Religious people vulch off our scientific ideas, scientists vulch off religious holidays. Fair trade Sorry, but the trade is hardly fair at all, and the dichotomy is not scientist versus is religious person, but religious person versus atheist. How many atheists tell religious people they will burn for eternity merely for disagreeing? How many atheists tell religious people that they are incapable of love simply because they hold a different view? How many atheists tell religious people that their failure to accept a specific human mythology is enough to exclude them from public office? This issue is about much more than one shared national day of relaxation with family and friends every trip around the sun. Just turn on faux news for five minutes and you can see the propaganda machine hard at work programming viewers that their fellow humans are their enemies, that those who even remotely suggest that a culture of diversity is a good thing are worthy of derision, disgust, and dismissal... and how they do all of this simply because those others don't believe in the same imaginary friends and want to include more people in the sense of community and celebration of life. I could make the argument that scientific ideas are worth more than religious holidays to society at large, but that point is pretty obvious and doesn't lend itself so well to passionate rhetoric. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qijino1236 Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Merry Ibetchathroughoutthe8,000yearsofhumanhistorytherewasprobablyatleastoneimportantpersonfromeachmajorreligionandnonreligionthatwasbornondec25th-mas! and a Happy New Mayan Apocalypse Digits! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doG Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 (edited) Merry Ibetchathroughoutthe8,000yearsofhumanhistory..... 8000 years? Can you support that claim? Factually? With scientific evidence? Edited December 17, 2011 by doG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qijino1236 Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 8000 years? Can you support that claim? Factually? With scientific evidence? Most certainly not that's why I said I betcha instead of I know:)! Most certainly not that's why I said I betcha instead of I know:)! http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2010-06-05/people/28299315_1_vinayak-damodar-savarkar-hindus-and-muslims-common-nation atheists muslims hindu's and christians rejoice!! Merry Muhammad Ali Jinnah-mas!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insane_alien Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Something that really got on my nerves about christmas recently, a 'charitable' organisation (I won't name and shame them here) was asking for volunteers to help the homeless over the christmas/new year holidays. I thought that I would donate my time. I was asked 'are you a christian?' I said, no. I was told the following exact quote: "We can't accept non-christian volunteers at this time as we need to give our christian volunteers a chance to help out over the christmas season. We would be happy to have you volunteer after they have stopped though." needless to say, I'm taking my heathen charitable services elsewhere. So as a godless heathen I'll be enjoying christmas dinner with my family before helping out taking deliveries of meals to a variety of people who for reasons of age or disability have difficulty getting out of the house, especially at this time of year when it's icy and cold. I'm guessing zero of them will ask or even care what imaginary friend i subscribe (or don't subscribe) to. merry feast of renewal folks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qijino1236 Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 (edited) Most certainly not that's why I said I betcha instead of I know:)! http://articles.time...s-common-nation atheists muslims hindu's and christians rejoice!! Merry Muhammad Ali Jinnah-mas!!!! ok maybe that last post negated my point..... after re-edit... Atheists muslims and hindus rejoice Merry Muhammad Ali Jinnah-mas!!! ok maybe that last post negated my point..... after re-edit... Atheists muslims and hindus rejoice Merry Muhammad Ali Jinnah-mas!!! Actually it didn't negate my point :.... atheists, muslims, hindus, christians, jews, wiccans, etc... rejoice!! Merry Muhammad Ali Jinnah-mas and Newton-mas and Christmas!!! Edited December 17, 2011 by qijino1236 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Don't you have your own thread for well wishes already, qijino? http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/62253-merry-something/ Part of me feels you're posting is tangential to the core conversation taking place. Happy holidays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Tripolation Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 So as a godless heathen I'll be enjoying christmas dinner with my family before helping out taking deliveries of meals to a variety of people who for reasons of age or disability have difficulty getting out of the house, especially at this time of year when it's icy and cold. I'm guessing zero of them will ask or even care what imaginary friend i subscribe (or don't subscribe) to. That's great, IA. I really respect you for that. That's much more Christ-Like than sitting in your home watching your 12-year olds unwrapping an iPad 2 and several different video games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doG Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 "We can't accept non-christian volunteers at this time as we need to give our christian volunteers a chance to help out over the christmas season. We would be happy to have you volunteer after they have stopped though." needless to say, I'm taking my heathen charitable services elsewhere. Don't let it bother you. I get a lot of that here in the southern baptist bible belt. I am also referred to as an angel by many, most that enjoy my help to them in one way or another and have no idea I'm atheist. I'm sure most of them assume I'm Christian and I let them believe what they want. I wouldn't want the knowledge that I'm a humanist atheist angel to ruin their day after they've made mine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 That's great, IA. I really respect you for that. That's much more Christ-Like than sitting in your home watching your 12-year olds unwrapping an iPad 2 and several different video games. Knowing you through the years, it's obvious to me that your words are intended to be positive, and that you are sincere and mean zero offense. However, I pray hope you can understand that saying such a thing to a non-believer can be perceived as silly, meaningless, and even a bit insulting. It would be as if I replied to something you were doing by saying, "A_Tripolation - I respect you for that. It's very much like what Mohammed would have done." You would not likely perceive that as a compliment, nor would you perceive that as something which made your actions more worthy of respect, or in any way more impactful. You'd probably find yourself asking "Why did he say that," and "how is that at all relevant to what I just shared? why must you put these actions into context of your personal faith before you respect them?" Saying things like that means nothing, and IMO even takes away from the kindness and generosity being put forth. It's forcing something we do as humans to protect and care for our fellow citizens to be tainted with the broad brush of faith and belief. Instead, why can we not simply recognize such acts for their basic humanistic character and praise them for what they really are... an outward realization of the compassion we all share toward our fellow humans regardless of ideology? If I help the local food bank deliver over 10,000 meals, why does that have to be described as "Christ-like," instead of just a really great thing to do, and something that will have a real impact on the lives of people who need it? If I help raise $100,000 to be matched and doubled by my company so a $200,000 donation will be ultimately made, why does that have to be described as "Christ-like," instead of just a really great thing to do, and something that will have a real impact on the lives of people who need it? If I donate $2,000 worth of clothing to the local shelter, why does that have to be described as "Christ-like," instead of just a really great thing to do, and something that will have a real impact on the lives of people who need it? If I volunteer more than 40 hours of my time to assist in dishing out soup and handing bread to underprivileged families, why does that have to be described as "Christ-like," instead of just a really great thing to do, and something that will have a real impact on the lives of people who need it? I ask because I've done all of those things in the last few weeks, and you coming here calling it "Christ-like" makes me feel like my contributions are being minimized, hijacked by the theists, and the impact of my actions being forced through the lens of a belief system which I find repugnant and ignorant. I know you meant nothing of the sort with your comment, and that you genuinely respect insane_aliens actions... I suspect you even agree with him that it's silly he was turned away from helping because he doesn't believe in the easter bunny their personal version of god, but I'm trying illustrate to you how it can (and often is) perceived by those who don't share your particular delusion faith. ... and that wouldn't be very Krishna-like, now would it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insane_alien Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 I know you meant nothing of the sort with your comment, and that you genuinely respect insane_aliens actions... I suspect you even agree with him that it's silly he was turned away from helping because he doesn't believe in the easter bunny their personal version of god, but I'm trying illustrate to you how it can (and often is) perceived by those who don't share your particular delusion faith. Come on iNow, lets keep this civil. I would hope that the majority of people on this forum would be able to extract the meaning of A Tripolations comment and realise it was a compliment and not meant to belittle anything. I'm not offended, no reason for anyone else to get their hackles up either. Don't belittle A Tripolations compliment by getting all petulant about his wording. The intention and semantic are positive, thats all anyone needs to know. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 First, I was being civil. Apparently, civility is in the eye of the beholder, though. Second, it was not intended to belittle, but to educate. If anything, it is the contributions from non-believers being belittled by calling them "Christ-like," and that was the entire point of my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doG Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 If anything, it is the contributions from non-believers being belittled by calling them "Christ-like," and that was the entire point of my post. I'll second that. I do many things for others that Jesus of Nazareth would advocate. It's often said how Christian I am when the truth is that most of the so called Christians in this region wouldn't lift a finger to help others. FWIW, I've literally given away scores of The Jefferson Bible to educate these so called Christians on what their mentor advocated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Tripolation Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Knowing you through the years, it's obvious to me that your words are intended to be positive, and that you are sincere and mean zero offense. However, I pray hope you can understand that saying such a thing to a non-believer can be perceived as silly, meaningless, and even a bit insulting. Knowing you through the years, it's obvious to me that your words are intended to be positive, and that you are sincere and mean zero offense. However, I hope you can understand how caustic some of the things you say can come across as. It would be as if I replied to something you were doing by saying, "A_Tripolation - I respect you for that. It's very much like what Mohammed would have done." You would not likely perceive that as a compliment, nor would you perceive that as something which made your actions more worthy of respect, or in any way more impactful. You'd probably find yourself asking "Why did he say that," and "how is that at all relevant to what I just shared? why must you put these actions into context of your personal faith before you respect them?" The difference between me and you, iNow, is that I would be incredibly flattered. They respect Mohammed a great deal. To be compared to their savior would be such a great honor. This isn't even what I was intending with my post to IA, but we'll get to that in a bit. Saying things like that means nothing, and IMO even takes away from the kindness and generosity being put forth. It's forcing something we do as humans to protect and care for our fellow citizens to be tainted with the broad brush of faith and belief. Instead, why can we not simply recognize such acts for their basic humanistic character and praise them for what they really are... an outward realization of the compassion we all share toward our fellow humans regardless of ideology? ... I ask because I've done all of those things in the last few weeks, and you coming here calling it "Christ-like" makes me feel like my contributions are being minimized, hijacked by the theists, and the impact of my actions being forced through the lens of a belief system which I find repugnant and ignorant. Yep. I agree. I think that Doctors without Borders, a secular organization, is one of the best groups on this planet. You just misinterpreted my words. I know you meant nothing of the sort with your comment, and that you genuinely respect insane_aliens actions... I suspect you even agree with him that it's silly he was turned away from helping because he doesn't believe in the easter bunny their personal version of god, but I'm trying illustrate to you how it can (and often is) perceived by those who don't share your particular delusion faith. Ignoring your attempts at ridicule subtle wording, let me tell you what I meant. You almost touch on it in your "I suspect you even agree with him that it's silly he was turned away from helping because he doesn't believe in [God]" bit. The point I was trying to make was that they didn't want IA because he wasn't "Christian" (meaning Christ-Like) enough to be able to help and volunteer, when, in fact, he used his time to help the needy instead of focusing on material goods and wealth. And THAT is infinitely more Christ-Like than staying in a $500,000 home and giving your children an iPad 2 for Christmas. He WAS MORE THAN "Christian" enough to help them, yet they turned him away. I was simply telling IA that he was a better Christian than a lot of the Christians that they would've accepted help from. Now. Had I said, "That's great, IA. That was really Christian of you", then I see how that would merit your post. Why would compassion and charitable works be solely limited to one variant of monotheistic religions? That's ridiculous. It's why I MADE SURE to use "Christ-Like" instead of Christian. I hope you can now see the true intent and tone of my post. ... and that wouldn't be very Krishna-like, now would it? Krishna's not really about love and peace like Jesus and Mohammed, so I think that's irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 The difference between me and you, iNow, is that I would be incredibly flattered. Agreed. You seem content to let all of your actions be viewed through their specific prism, whereas I'm trying to break down those walls and see the goodness as a human trait (not one limited to their worldview, and not one limited only to those who belief in a cosmic dictatorial sky pixie). I was simply telling IA that he was a better Christian than a lot of the Christians that they would've accepted help from. Don't you see how you're trying to force the entire concept of "goodness" to fit into your personal belief system anchored in Christ? I think your own concession makes clear that your view of being "Christian" differs from many who self-describe themselves that way. What I'm trying to point out is that the behaviors you associate with "christianity" are actually something we all share as humans. They are humanistic, not christian. They are humanistic, not muslim. They are humanistic, not hindu. Why must the goodness and compassion all be relegated to a bronze age belief system generated by people in a desert somewhere? I understand that your intentions are kind, and also that you think I'm caustic. Oh well. You're obviously missing a much broader point, and failing to see just how civil I am being while I seek ways to illuminate it for you. Why would compassion and charitable works be solely limited to one variant of monotheistic religions? That's ridiculous. It's why I MADE SURE to use "Christ-Like" instead of Christian. Again, you're clearly missing the point, but I'll address you head-on this time. What if the entire concept of "Christ-like" is seen by that person as a bad thing? Christ is not all sunshine and rainbows and lollipops, my friend. Just because you choose to ignore the bad bits doesn't mean they are not there. What would Jesus do? Christians are always claiming, “he’s the lamb”, “our savior”, “the king of peace”, “the embodiment of love”, amongst the many other names they associate with a loving, merciful nature. Jesus a nice guy? Not in my book. Nor in any other person’s who is capable of compassion and rationality. Let’s examine who the hell the Jesus character really is. These verses will show not only is Jesus’ “loving” nature a joke but so are the Christians who worship him. <continue reading> Krishna's not really about love and peace like Jesus and Mohammed, so I think that's irrelevant. It supplemented my point that it's not necessary to force kind actions through the narrow and misguided lens of religious belief. It was entirely relevant. What I am advocating is that good actions to be judged for what they are, and in context of the fact that we humans exist as a social species where kind acts better the species as a whole. I am advocating that the kindness of others be valued intrinsically, and not minimized by biblical mythologies or figureheads. As I said previously: If anything, it is the contributions from non-believers being belittled by calling them "Christ-like," and that was the entire point of my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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