atheists and religious holidays

[Moontanman]

Religious holidays effect me no more than grazing beside a river bothers a horse who isn't thirsty, it's only when someone drags me into the water and tries to hold my head under til I drink does it really start to piss me off. I like Christmas, I like the bright lights, decorated conifers, getting and giving gifts, feasting, and all the other pagan traditions associated with the holiday. The best part is the virgin birth of a god, a great but often repeated pagan tradition as well. Yup, gotta love them pagans, great traditions connected with the movements of the sun and moon, quite useful to run a agrarian culture way back when, and very good for our modern capitalist society as well....

[swansont]

Sure you should! You'll get a better understanding Christianity, and maybe you'll convert to Christianity, like, if you don't, you'll burn for eternity. So go ahead.

 

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Don't go there. This is a discussion forum, not a preaching forum (general rule #8. You don't want to find out how little tolerance there is here to proselytizing.)

 

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[njaohnt]

!

Moderator Note

Don't go there. This is a discussion forum, not a preaching forum (general rule #8. You don't want to find out how little tolerance there is here to proselytizing.)

 

Responses to this have been removed.

Okay then, you should. If you like the stories, go right ahead. I'm sure none of the Christians will mind.

[dragonstar57]

That's one opinion. I tend to agree with the author of the article, and like how they used the opportunity to let the child find their own answer and come to an understanding without it being spoon fed to them. This will serve them well throughout life, and will extend their critical thinking capacity well beyond just the issues of Santa or Satan's existence.

 

 

I don't see how. Please clarify and be specific.

 

 

 

I think you're trying a bit too hard with that one. There is no such thing as a moral code rooted in atheism. Atheism is nothing more than a lack of theism... a lack of belief in god or gods. The morals are separate, and come from the fact that we are a social species who evolved in packs and have altruistic humanist tendencies. Atheism doesn't inform people's morality in the way you are suggesting.

 

I also can't accept your points about atheists not being homophobic or nationalistic or sexist or racist. There are (unfortunately) a great many people who lack belief in god or gods who are very homophobic, very nationalistic, very sexist, and even very racist. Your dichotomy is false.

 

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A follow-up post to the one I linked above for anyone interested: http://parentingbeyondbelief.com/blog/?p=6665

the pious remark was meant to be directed at the person you were quoting sorry about that. As for athiesm's belifes there is no unifying school of thought or dogma but that lack informs morals. ( I prefaceed this by saying it was an awful generalization) but there are no "god hates f**s" movements" in athiesm and it is not inherent as it arguably is in christianity.

PS. I'm typing this on my droid phone and it is very difficult to be precise and clear in my thoughts.

Edited January 3, 2012 by dragonstar57

[iNow]

As for athiesm's belifes there is no unifying school of thought or dogma but that lack informs morals.

I think I understand the point you're making, but I would challenge you on something implicit in your comment. You still seem to view morality as tied to religious belief. It's not. It's tied to the fact that we exist as social creatures who rely on the group around us to survive. Morality evolved, and was hijacked by religion. It was not created by religion, and nonbelievers don't lack morals... despite your insinuations to the contrary.

 

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmyths/p/AtheistsMorals.htm

[doG]

As for athiesm's belifes there is no unifying school of thought or dogma but that lack informs morals.

In addition to being atheist I am also a humanist. I treat others as I do because it is the right thing to do, not because I might get to go to some paradise when I die or to avoid the threat of hell. I need no fairy tales to make me a good person.

Edited January 3, 2012 by doG

[njaohnt]

Thank you. Let's recognize the behavior and praise it for what it is, not for how it compares to our personal idols.

 

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And now for something completely different. On topic... sort of.

 

 

http://parentingbeyondbelief.com/blog/?p=6656

That quote is a great one! Every year thousands of children are tricked that a mystirious man, named Santa, and every Christmas, he goes around putting presents under their trees. Then they think "how does this happen?", and think of all sorts of reasons of why Santa can't exist… then, years later, they realize how it all works.

Their parents pretend to be this man, putting presents, that say "From Santa". So it happens by all their parents, working together, rather than one man and his reindeer.

So maybe this works way differently, and I don't know if God wants us to know.

This works very much the same in the form of presents. The children continue to believe, only because they actually do get presents.

Same thing, we actually have physics, and matter. So called "presents"

Where did they come from?

God. So called "Santa".

So, that asks atheists "Where did physics, and matter come from?"

So if you're an atheist, tell me, where did physics and matter come from?

 

In addition to being atheist I am also a humanist. I treat others as I do because it is the right thing to do, not because I might get to go to some paradise when I die or to avoid the threat of hell. I need no fairy tales to make me a good person.

I'm asking you the Question.

Edited January 3, 2012 by njaohnt

[iNow]

Where did physics, and matter come from?

If it's not santa claus, then it's probably through the accumulation of knowledge and experience... teachings passed on through generations and added to with each new mind and person... a few individuals who grasped the nature of the reality around them in new ways and shared those insights with the community around them... a community who found benefit in these concepts and implemented them for our collective benefit. Each bit of knowledge builds upon the last.

 

Saying "goddidit" is no better than saying "it was magic."

[ydoaPs]

So, that asks atheists "Where did physics, and matter come from?"

Matter condensed from energy which was present at time epsilon of the Big Bang. In that sense, matter has always existed as there was no time at which the matter/energy did not exist. Any other questions?

[njaohnt]

Matter condensed from energy which was present at time epsilon of the Big Bang. In that sense, matter has always existed as there was no time at which the matter/energy did not exist. Any other questions?

Matter condensed from energy? How did that happen? Does that mean that there is a way to make matter?

"In that sense, matter has always existed as there was no time at which the matter/energy did not exist."

How did that happen? That makes as much sense(if not, less) as "God was just -- there.".

Thus, I don't know how atheists figure this happens. How do you make physics? You can't. How do make matter? I don't think you can.

 

If it's not santa claus, then it's probably through the accumulation of knowledge and experience... teachings passed on through generations and added to with each new mind and person... a few individuals who grasped the nature of the reality around them in new ways and shared those insights with the community around them... a community who found benefit in these concepts and implemented them for our collective benefit. Each bit of knowledge builds upon the last.

 

Saying "goddidit" is no better than saying "it was magic."

That's no worse than saying "Physics, and matter were just here.".

[ydoaPs]

Matter condensed from energy? How did that happen?

The energy cooled enough for matter to form.

 

Does that mean that there is a way to make matter?

Yes.

 

Matter condensed from energy? How did that happen? Does that mean that there is a way to make matter?

"In that sense, matter has always existed as there was no time at which the matter/energy did not exist."

How did that happen? That makes as much sense(if not, less) as "God was just -- there.".

Thus, I don't know how atheists figure this happens. How do you make physics? You can't. How do make matter? I don't think you can.

 

 

That's no worse than saying "Physics, and matter were just here.".

We know matter exists.

[Arete]

That's no worse than saying "Physics, and matter were just here.".

 

Actually - If we're adhering to strict logic, it's considerably worse. It relies on the positive assertion that God was "just here" despite no direct observation to support the existence of God. Axiomatically, if a God can create matter/physics, God itself is more complex than matter/physics are (and most monotheistic religions explicitly state this assumption by describing God as an omnipotent, sentient being) . Therefore, you are making the assumption that an unobserved entity, more complex than matter itself existed to create the matter.

 

As such, the conclusion that matter and physics were created by a God relies on more unsupported assumptions than concluding that matter and physics were not created by a God. It therefore fails the principle of Occam's Razor and is thus not a conclusion reached by pure deductive reasoning.

 

I am certainly not trying to disenfranchise or belittle your faith based position, but let's call a spade a spade - it is a faith based conclusion and not one reached via deductive reasoning. The God answer might be philosophically and personally satisfying it is however, scientifically unsatisfying.

[doG]

I'm asking you the Question.

So, you're asking a question, a question that has no bearing. What does it matter if we know or don't know where matter came from? That questions exist that we may not have answers for does not mean that we can just make answers up. All we can do is keep looking for the answers. That is what science is about, searching for the facts that answer our questions. Only quitters make up answers

[njaohnt]

So, you're asking a question, a question that has no bearing. What does it matter if we know or don't know where matter came from? That questions exist that we may not have answers for does not mean that we can just make answers up. All we can do is keep looking for the answers. That is what science is about, searching for the facts that answer our questions. Only quitters make up answers

Okay, if you say, but to me atheism is all about how God can not exist, because God can't be scientifically possible, when, really, the whole idea is not scientifically possible. Look for answers, but there are none. Matter cannot come out of nothing. Physics cannot come out of nothing. It's as simple as that. There is no way way -- no matter how complex -- that matter, and physics can come out of nothing.

 

The energy cooled enough for matter to form.

 

Yes.

 

 

We know matter exists.

Then make matter. Has anyone made matter? If you can, what decides what it will be? You seriously believe that all the matter was put at just the right amount, and just the right stuff for all this to happen? The big bang, just big enough cause all of this life to be possible? If you have a reply, please do it in another topic, this has nothing to do with atheists and religious holidays.

Edited January 4, 2012 by njaohnt

[ydoaPs]

Then make matter.

I don't have the equipment as it's rather expensive; Ask Severian.

 

Has anyone made matter?

Yes.

 

If you can, what decides what it will be?

The energy you use as well as the charge of the matter you use to make the new matter determine the properties of what is made.

[Moontanman]

Okay, if you say, but to me atheism is all about how God can not exist, because God can't be scientifically possible, when, really, the whole idea is not scientifically possible. Look for answers, but there are none. Matter cannot come out of nothing. Physics cannot come out of nothing. It's as simple as that. There is no way way -- no matter how complex -- that matter, and physics can come out of nothing.

 

First off, only creationists claim something from nothing, science does not make that claim. The same assertion that something cannot come from nothing can be made about God, where do gods come from? What created gods? I think humans created the concept of god. I want to know, you obviously are getting your information from videos on youtube, I watched yours did you watch mine, remember not to violate the 9th commandment in your answer.

 

Matter condensed from energy? How did that happen? Does that mean that there is a way to make matter?

"In that sense, matter has always existed as there was no time at which the matter/energy did not exist."

How did that happen? That makes as much sense(if not, less) as "God was just -- there.".

Thus, I don't know how atheists figure this happens. How do you make physics? You can't. How do make matter? I don't think you can.

 

 

That's no worse than saying "Physics, and matter were just here.".

 

I'm getting a bit tired of your assumption that atheists are making these assertions as though all theists agree with you, I ask you directly, give me some evidence of your god, yes your god, why is your god real and all the others not real? You could win a lot of respect by answering that with something other than I just know. Do you have any testable empirical evidence of any god much less your tiny idea of god?

 

You are ignorant of the concept of god, ignorant of the concept of science, ignorant of the writings of your god, where do you get your information from? Have you ever actually researched any of this or do you just swallow after sucking up anything you agree with? Asking what was before the big bang is like asking what is south of the south pole, the most honest answer is we just don't know where the universe came from.. as of now, but the investigation goes on and no God is not the default position....

 

God of the gaps, as the gaps get smaller god gets smaller, how small will god have to be before you admit you are just wrong? You still haven't addressed the flat disc shaped earth under a crystal dome, how can god have been so wrong?

[doG]

Okay, if you say, but to me atheism is all about how God can not exist, because God can't be scientifically possible, when, really, the whole idea is not scientifically possible. Look for answers, but there are none. Matter cannot come out of nothing. Physics cannot come out of nothing. It's as simple as that. There is no way way -- no matter how complex -- that matter, and physics can come out of nothing.

I don't care what atheism is to you. The term atheist simply means not-theist. Theists have an affirmative belief in deities. Anyone that lacks such a belief is not-theist, i.e. atheist. Atheism does not mean one has an affirmative belief that deities do not or cannot exist. Some atheists do indeed have such a belief but only a lack of belief is necessary to be non-theist. Additionally, atheism is not a scientific position on the origins of matter, energy or anything else. It has nothing to do with physics or science. Perhaps you should make an effort to become a little more informed lest you tear down your credibility any further!

[njaohnt]

First off, only creationists claim something from nothing, science does not make that claim. The same assertion that something cannot come from nothing can be made about God, where do gods come from? What created gods? I think humans created the concept of god. I want to know, you obviously are getting your information from videos on youtube, I watched yours did you watch mine, remember not to violate the 9th commandment in your answer.

 

 

 

I'm getting a bit tired of your assumption that atheists are making these assertions as though all theists agree with you, I ask you directly, give me some evidence of your god, yes your god, why is your god real and all the others not real? You could win a lot of respect by answering that with something other than I just know. Do you have any testable empirical evidence of any god much less your tiny idea of god?

 

You are ignorant of the concept of god, ignorant of the concept of science, ignorant of the writings of your god, where do you get your information from? Have you ever actually researched any of this or do you just swallow after sucking up anything you agree with? Asking what was before the big bang is like asking what is south of the south pole, the most honest answer is we just don't know where the universe came from.. as of now, but the investigation goes on and no God is not the default position....

 

God of the gaps, as the gaps get smaller god gets smaller, how small will god have to be before you admit you are just wrong? You still haven't addressed the flat disc shaped earth under a crystal dome, how can god have been so wrong?

The Bible says nothing about the earth being flat. Show me where it says that.

Evidence? There is lots of it. The Bible, stories about people getting healed. Stories about atheists dying, and getting shown hell, and then coming back to earth for another chance… if only it happened to all non-Christians.

 

Someone went to hell, here: http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/Jennifer_Perez/Hell_is_Real_I_Went_There_Jennifer_Perez.htm

 

And here: http://www.testimoniesofheavenandhell.com/tag/people-who-went-to-hell-and-came-back/

 

And here: http://www.amightywind.com/hell/testimonies.htm

And all over Goolgle.

Edited January 4, 2012 by njaohnt

[ydoaPs]

The Bible says nothing about the earth being flat.

"Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them"-Matthew 4:8

[njaohnt]

"Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them"-Matthew 4:8

What part of that says that the earth is flat?

[ydoaPs]

What part of that says that the earth is flat?

The whole thing. Take a ball and see if you can see one side from the other.

 

"The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth"-Daniel 4:11

 

"And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."-Isaiah 11:12

[Moontanman]

The Bible says nothing about the earth being flat. Show me where it says that.

 

I'm gonna assume you will argue til the cows come home if I try to show the specific scripture in tiny bits and peices you'll say it's out of context or something similar, so here it is in not a bunch of small sips but an entire pitcher full of knowledge, try to drink it slowly and don't choke, if you dare of course, I am betting you have no interest what so ever in truth....

 

 

Evidence? There is lots of it. The Bible, stories about people getting healed. Stories about atheists dying, and getting shown hell, and then coming back to earth for another chance… if only it happened to all non-Christians.

 

Stories you say, stories about people being healed and I assume that your almighty god can heal anything right? How about those amputees? Why doesn't god grow back their limbs? Stories, how droll, I have visited Saturn's Moon titan, I've see the vast cities made of ice as hard as granite, I've been there, it's my story....

 

Someone went to hell, here: http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/Jennifer_Perez/Hell_is_Real_I_Went_There_Jennifer_Perez.htm

 

And here: http://www.testimoniesofheavenandhell.com/tag/people-who-went-to-hell-and-came-back/

 

And here: http://www.amightywind.com/hell/testimonies.htm

And all over Goolgle.

 

 

More unconfirmed stories? I've read many near death experiences, had one myself, they prove nothing and are usually a reflection of the spiritual bias of the individual, in other words Muslims see Allah, Hindu's see Krishna, most people see nothing. You basing your belief system on what some body with an agenda tells you? Again i ask you to rise above your ignorance and educate yourself, read your holy book, really read about the psychopath you worship...

[imatfaal]

More unconfirmed stories? I've read many near death experiences, had one myself, they prove nothing and are usually a reflection of the spiritual bias of the individual, in other words Muslims see Allah, Hindu's see Krishna, most people see nothing. You basing your belief system on what some body with an agenda tells you? Again i ask you to rise above your ignorance and educate yourself, read your holy book, really read about the psychopath you worship...

 

I realise this is an impertinent and personal question ... but what did you see?

[Moontanman]

I realise this is an impertinent and personal question ... but what did you see?

 

 

Ok, I'll tell the story...

 

I was out with two other men floundering, a type of fishing you do at night from a boat by using a light to show flounders in shallow water, they come into shallow water and night, you use a spear that is known as a gig. It was 02:30 am or so and we were coming back to the boat landing speeding along in a 14 foot aluminum boat.

 

Have you ever seen the picture that was popular on the internet that showed a boat that hit a piling head on and and split into two part back to about 5 feet from the bow? Well that was what we did, we hit a piling.

 

 

Except we were in an aluminium boat. I was thrown from the boat (as was another man who was uninjured) and my left foot and lower leg practically destroyed. I sank to the bottom in about 25 feet of water, remember this was at night. I was unconscious on the bottom for an undetermined amount of time, my first memory was drifting along the bottom and feeling oyster shells scraping my back. I remember being very content to just drift along and fade away.

 

Then I heard a voice that said "get up!" I opened my eyes and the ocean bottom was lit up bright was day all around me, again I heard the voice and it said, "getup, it's not your time, you will have a son who will be important"

 

I tried to swim but my left leg was just flopping around but I struggled to the surface at which time the light vanished and a real nightmare began, the water was full of blood from my wounds and the pain, after I was dragged back into the boat is difficult to describe, while I was in the water I felt no pain, it took me 18 months to recover and many surgeries and i still lost my ankle and my leg is 2" shorted that it was.

 

Now more context, my wife and I had been discussing having another child, she wanted a boy and I wanted a girl, the voice was feminine and the light could very well have been the natural phosphorescence that occurs in the ocean. i am a trained scuba diver and most of my dive time was at night and I had observed this light many times before. My diver training and the natural mammalian response to being under water unconscious kept me from drowning.

 

Three years later we did indeed have a another son, that was 3 years later than we had planned but the accident shelved our plans for more kids at the time.

 

And yes I was an atheist at that time....

 

One more point, when I first opened my eyes i remember looking down at myself laying on the bottom of the ocean.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Moontanman

[zapatos]

Ok, I'll tell the story...

Thanks for sharing such a personal story. Very interesting.