atheists and religious holidays

[njaohnt]

It starts with the question: Is God rational?

 

Well what is rationality? Simply put, rationality is a consistent behaviour given consistent situations.

 

So, if God is rational, then He will act in a consistent way. This is essential if God is to be good.

 

Take this: God is presented with a situation where there is two choices:

1) Do something Good

2) Do something Evil

 

If God is rational, then He will choose to do good. If He is irrational, then He will randomly choose good sometimes and evil other times.

 

Thus, if God is Good, then He must act rationally. Of course He doesn't have to, only that if He chooses to be Good He must act rationally and thus we can know what God should do if He wishes to be Good (but being omnipotent He is capable of being evil and of choosing not to be).

 

This might be a bit confusing as the logic is fairly complex, but put simply:

 

• Irrational actions don't have consistency.
• An all powerful being must have the ability to be evil.
• A Good being must be rational (so that they consistently choose good).

 

Therefore God, if He is good, must be rational.

 

If God is rational, then we can work out what the rational action would be, and thus the action God would take in that situation.

 

Now, God would not be constrained to only perform these actions, but that if He didn't perform them He would not longer be completely Good (thus Good and Evil for God is a choice, not a necessity). Actually, from this we can conclude that God has free will because if He didn't have the freedom to choose Good or Evil, then He would not be all powerful as He would have a constraint.

 

Now, given all the above, in the following situation what is the rational course of action consistent with being good:

 

You have the power to make the universe anyway you want with any physical laws you want and any restrictions on the inhabitants of that universe that you want.

 

1. Create a universe with suffering
2. Create a universe without suffering

 

As it is possible to create a universe without suffering, then all suffering is unnecessary. Is the deliberate creation of suffering a Good or evil act?

 

If it is an evil act, then God can not be good because He will have made a deliberate and evil act.

 

But, according to Christian doctrine, God will not perform an evil act. But if God created the universe with suffering He will have performed an evil act.

 

This means that the Christian religion is incompatible with a universe that has suffering in it, and as our universe has suffering, then this means the Christian religion can not be true.

 

There is no escape from this. The properties of an omnipotent and good god with a universe that has suffering can not be combined.

 

Now, if God is not Good, or God is not rational; then the universe as it is, is compatible, but the Christian religion states that God is good (and thus rational).

 

If God is not omnipotent; then the universe as it is, is compatible, but the Christian religion states that God is omnipotent.

 

In all debates, if something disagrees with reality, then reality wins. The reality is we live in a universe with suffering and the Christian religion requires us to be in a universe without suffering.

 

As reality always wins: The Christian religion must therefore fail.

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genisis3&version=NIV

 

God didn't want suffering to happen.

[iNow]

Then he is not omnipotent.

[doG]

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genisis3&version=NIV

Hearsay evidence is not credible support for your position. Can you cite something more authoritative and verifiable?

[njaohnt]

But you better do more research on God, because you don't want to go to Hell.

 

^'4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. ⁵ For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Messiah,' and will deceive many.' -- that's happening a lot --' ⁶ You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. ⁷ Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.' --Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and apparently some of these countries are going out against Israel--' There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.'--Japan, Haiti--' ⁸ All these are the beginning of birth pains.

 

⁹ "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.'' '--Like I said, Israel--' ¹⁰ At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, '--You--' ¹¹ and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. ¹² Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, ¹³ but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. ¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.' --Looks like you've heard, haven't you?--

 

(Matthew 24 NIV)

 

 

 

 

The Tribulation. Imagine how much worse Hell must be.

 

'¹ Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth."

 

² The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

 

³ The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead person, and every living thing in the sea died.

 

⁴ The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. ⁵ Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:

 

"You are just in these judgments, O Holy One,

you who are and who were;

⁶ for they have shed the blood of your holy people and your prophets,

and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve."

 

⁷ And I heard the altar respond:

 

"Yes, Lord God Almighty,

true and just are your judgments."

 

⁸ The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. ⁹ They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

 

¹⁰ The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony ¹¹ and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

 

¹² The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. ¹³ Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. ¹⁴ They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

 

¹⁵ "Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed."

 

¹⁶ Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

¹⁷ The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, "It is done!" ¹⁸ Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. ¹⁹ The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. ²⁰ Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. ²¹ From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds,^[a] fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.'

 

(Revelation 16 NIV)

Edited March 6, 2012 by njaohnt

[iNow]

But you better do more research on God, because you don't want to go to Hell.

How do you know he won't smite me with his hammer?

 

[njaohnt]

Then he is not omnipotent.

 

The Bible says nothing about Him being omnipotent.

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=omnipotent+&qs_version=NIV

 

How do you know he won't smite me with his hammer?

 

 

12Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14I will be found by you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back from captivity.^b I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile.”

(Jeremiah 29:12-14 NIV)

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

The Bible says nothing about Him being omnipotent.

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=omnipotent+&qs_version=NIV

Matthew 19:26, Luke 18:27, Mark 10:27. In both cases, Jesus says something to the effect of "all things are possible with God." That sounds like omnipotence.

[doG]

The Bible says nothing about Him being omnipotent.

So, the bible is not evidence of anything anyhow. Please tell us, is god omnipotent or not and please cite something to support that claim if you think it is.

[njaohnt]

Hearsay evidence is not credible support for your position. Can you cite something more authoritative and verifiable?

 

No.

[mooeypoo]

The Bible says nothing about Him being omnipotent.

 

http://www.biblegate...&qs_version=NIV

 

 

 

12Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14I will be found by you," declares the Lord, "and will bring you back from captivity.^b I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you," declares the Lord, "and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile."

(Jeremiah 29:12-14 NIV)

 

 

I beg your pardon?

 

 

• Genesis 17:1
  And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
• Job 42:2
  I know that thou canst do everything, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
• Jeremiah 32:17,27
  Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
  Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
• Luke 1:37
  For with God nothing shall be impossible.
• Revelation 19:6
  And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

 

[njaohnt]

So, the bible is not evidence of anything anyhow. Please tell us, is god omnipotent or not and please cite something to support that claim if you think it is.

 

The Bible is the only place where you can find out why God does what He does. Where else?

[doG]

The Bible is the only place where you can find out why God does what He does. Where else?

The bible is a hearsay book written by MAN and is no evidence of anything. Please tell us where there is any credible evidence to support a belief in god that is a work of god, not one of mankind's storybooks.

 

P.S.

 

You cannot use the bible as evidence to support the bible itself as evidence.

Edited March 6, 2012 by doG

[njaohnt]

Matthew 19:26, Luke 18:27, Mark 10:27. In both cases, Jesus says something to the effect of "all things are possible with God." That sounds like omnipotence.

 

Possible. Not needed to be good, though. If I had a legal counterfeit bill maker, and you are in debt, and your $250 000 house is at risk, Am I going to give you money? Maybe. First I would give it to the people that are at risk of losing their food, which only costs a dollar a day, in the poorest of countries. Looks like your at the back of the line, but the people in extreme poverty keep on cutting in line, because of their situation.

 

If someone doesn't work, is it your responsibility to provide for them, because you are not evil? No, they need to stop doing the evil which do, and get a job. Looks like you need to start following the Bible to have your prayer answered.

 

The bible is a hearsay book written by MAN and is no evidence of anything. Please tell us where there is any credible evidence to support a belief in god that is a work of god, not one of mankind's storybooks.

 

P.S.

 

You cannot use the bible as evidence to support the bible itself as evidence.

 

Not God's existence, but His laws and what He wants you to do.

[mooeypoo]

Not God's existence, but His laws and what He wants you to do.

 

This is circular logic, and it doesn't work.

 

You said you can't find out about God's ways outside the bible, but then you said it's not God's existence but his laws. How can you tell it's his laws without knowing he exists at all?

 

 

You can't use the bible as proof for the bible being true. It doesn't work like that.

[iNow]

Now feels like it would be good time for a reminder about this interaction recently in another thread (itself closed):

Not that it really matters, but out of curiosity njaohnt, would I be correct in assuming that you are somewhere between age 11 and 14?

Yes.

[Arete]

[doG]

Not God's existence, but His laws and what He wants you to do.

Holy cow, thanks for the laugh. That's the funniest post I've seen today.

[telepathyah]

should atheists retain religious holidays/festivals just because they like them/want to and can they do so without compromising their opinion? and should atheists be offended by religious elements to religious holidays that they celebrate?

while i do not believe in god/ Jesus i have no problem hearing a song about the birth of Jesus around Christmas (quite possibly the best holiday ever).

 

Hey, a good story is a good story, right? As an atheist, I enjoy holidays just as much as when I was Christian. The holidays are and have always been about seeing family and eating good food!

[iNow]

Here's the thing, though. After you've been around these discussions for long enough you begin to realize that the error of thought and logical fallacies are not limited just to the fundamentalists. Even those rather intelligent, very rational, and mostly reasonable theists base their belief position on exactly the same unfounded, meritless, and ultimately rotten foundation.

Yep. Still true.

[Edtharan]

But you better do more research on God, because you don't want to go to Hell.

 

^'4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you.

How can you tell if someone is lying to you?

 

Simple.

 

Check to see if what they are saying matches with reality.

 

If it doesn't match with reality, then they are lying.

 

So, does the bible state anything that does not match with reality?

 

Matthew 4:8. Apparently there is a mountain high enough you can see every where on Earth. Mt Everest is known to be the highest mountain on Earth and you can not see every where on Earth.

 

This is a passage in the bible that does not match with reality. Hmm, does this mean that because the bible does not match with reality, then the bible is lying (that is deceiving you?).

 

⁵ For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Messiah,' and will deceive many.'

Well, I am not claiming to be the messiah, so this definitely does not apply to me. However, religions all claim to be The Saviour (or at least to represent him).

 

There are many religions and many denominations in each of them. Which one then it the true one? But remember, apparently the deceiver will claim to be the messiah, and I am not claiming that...

 

-- that's happening a lot --' ⁶ You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. ⁷ Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.' --Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and apparently some of these countries are going out against Israel--' There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.'--Japan, Haiti--' ⁸ All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Umm, Wars, Famines and Earthquakes happen all the time and have been happening since the Earth formed. Now is no different to any other time.

 

So your argument here is special pleading. You are saying that even though these events have been occurring all the time, now is a special time of them despite no increase in their occurrences.

 

To me this attempt appears as an attempt to deceive (either others, or yourself) and see your first argument for what you should do in this case.

 

⁹ "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.'' '--Like I said, Israel--'

This sounds like hate speech to me. To me, what this says is that despite leading a completely blameless life and even one that helps others with acts of selflessness, except that you are an atheist, then Jesus will turn the world against you and get them to kill you.

 

Nice guy.

 

Sorry, if this is the God that you worship, then this is clearly an evil unjust God. Actually, it sounds exactly like what the Devil is described as...

 

¹⁰ At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, '--You--'

Actually, more hate speech and bigotry is generated by religions and by atheists (see this:

).

 

If the evidence (ie: what reality shows) is applied to your arguments here, then religion is claiming falsehoods (that is deceiving) and advocates hate speech and unjust killing (if any killing could be though of as just at all).

 

With this line you have posted, that to follow the devil and rejecting God will have you end up doing these actions, and that your religion seems to say that God will do these, then to me it seems that if you were to follow what you posted then you must reject Christianity.

 

¹¹ and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

As I am not trying to deceive and I base what I believe on reality, then I can not be considered as part of this. Where as Christianity and other religions do just this. they state that the world is different from how it is and encourage hate and bigotry. To me, these are false "prophets" as they are trying to get you to believe in something false.

 

¹² Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,

I have a warm and loving family and none of them are religious (all atheists). But organisations that say that two people should not love each other just because they happen to have the same gender is reducing the amount of love in the world, making love grow cold. These people are born hard-wired to love the same gender, but religion states that they must either live a lie (again advocating deceiving) or live a life without love.

 

The Tribulation. Imagine how much worse Hell must be.

Actually for me, Hell would be knowing that good people would go to Hell just because they didn't have blind faith (and remember, the bible doesn't state we should have blind faith) in a God that advocates hate, murder and sending good people to hell for not blindly believing in Him.

 

In other words, exactly the type of "Heaven" as stated in the bible. So Hell for me is the biblical Heaven.

[njaohnt]

How can you tell if someone is lying to you?

 

Simple.

 

Check to see if what they are saying matches with reality.

 

If it doesn't match with reality, then they are lying.

 

So, does the bible state anything that does not match with reality?

 

Matthew 4:8. Apparently there is a mountain high enough you can see every where on Earth. Mt Everest is known to be the highest mountain on Earth and you can not see every where on Earth.

It never said that you could see the whole world, it just said that the Devil showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, which could have happened with a miracle. Miracles match realality, because many Christians have experianced them, like my mom. Now, it's not like this was impossible, but have you ever been walking, and then you just stop, for no reason? You have no clue how stopped. That happened to her, when she was walking towards her car in a parking lot. She was very close, then, she stopped, and a dump truck ran right over her car.

There are many religions and many denominations in each of them. Which one then it the true one? But remember, apparently the deceiver will claim to be the messiah, and I am not claiming that...

Why?

1. Christianity is the biggest religion in the world

2. I have never seen any miracles from other religions

Umm, Wars, Famines and Earthquakes happen all the time and have been happening since the Earth formed. Now is no different to any other time.

I think that it means there will be more of them, and they will be more severe.

This sounds like hate speech to me. To me, what this says is that despite leading a completely blameless life and even one that helps others with acts of selflessness, except that you are an atheist, then Jesus will turn the world against you and get them to kill you.

 

Nice guy.

 

Sorry, if this is the God that you worship, then this is clearly an evil unjust God. Actually, it sounds exactly like what the Devil is described as...

 

 

Actually, more hate speech and bigotry is generated by religions and by atheists (see this:

).

 

If the evidence (ie: what reality shows) is applied to your arguments here, then religion is claiming falsehoods (that is deceiving) and advocates hate speech and unjust killing (if any killing could be though of as just at all).

 

With this line you have posted, that to follow the devil and rejecting God will have you end up doing these actions, and that your religion seems to say that God will do these, then to me it seems that if you were to follow what you posted then you must reject Christianity.

All unjustness will be made up to the Christians after their death.

I have a warm and loving family and none of them are religious (all atheists). But organisations that say that two people should not love each other just because they happen to have the same gender is reducing the amount of love in the world, making love grow cold. These people are born hard-wired to love the same gender, but religion states that they must either live a lie (again advocating deceiving) or live a life without love.

It doesn't say you can't.

Actually for me, Hell would be knowing that good people would go to Hell just because they didn't have blind faith (and remember, the bible doesn't state we should have blind faith) in a God that advocates hate, murder and sending good people to hell for not blindly believing in Him.

But there's lots of evidence, it's not blind.

[John Cuthber]

" Christianity is the biggest religion in the world"

And we all know that a hundred thousand lemmings can't be wrong. Really, that's not a valid point. In particular there are roughly half as many atheists as Christians so it's not like it's totally one-sided.

"I have never seen any miracles from other religions"

I have never seen any miracles at all. However it is well documented that other religions claim miracles too.

"I think that it means there will be more of them, and they will be more severe."

What you "think" isn't evidence: what can you actually show to be true?

"All unjustness will be made up to the Christians after their death."

That's logically impossible. And it's also begging the question.

"It doesn't say you can't."

Oh yes it does. Look it up

Leviticus 18 22

"But there's lots of evidence, it's not blind. "

show us some then.

[hypervalent_iodine]

It never said that you could see the whole world, it just said that the Devil showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, which could have happened with a miracle. Miracles match realality, because many Christians have experianced them, like my mom. Now, it's not like this was impossible, but have you ever been walking, and then you just stop, for no reason? You have no clue how stopped. That happened to her, when she was walking towards her car in a parking lot. She was very close, then, she stopped, and a dump truck ran right over her car.Why?

1. Christianity is the biggest religion in the world

2. I have never seen any miracles from other religions

I think that it means there will be more of them, and they will be more severe.All unjustness will be made up to the Christians after their death.

It doesn't say you can't.

But there's lots of evidence, it's not blind.

 

!

Moderator Note

njaohnt, this is not a good way to come back from an enforced vacation. I would like to remind you of two mod notes posted in this thread:

 

!

Moderator Note

 

...

 

But I reread the thread and had to lend official support to what everyone here has been telling you. Your arguments are narrow-minded, lack even the barest support from observational evidence and show a complete lack of understanding of the difference between opinion and assertion.

 

Clearly, no one is learning anything from reading your posts (except about you personally, which they have been good enough to refrain from commenting about), and you haven't learned anything from anyone here. You don't show even a little interest in research on what's being given to you (if Hitler was the only person you knew from Arete's list of people, why didn't you bother to look some of them up?). I think you should truly question whether you're spending your time at the right site. We're going to continue to discuss and learn, and it's obvious those items are NOT on your agenda.

 

 

!

Moderator Note

The moral of the story is this: stop preaching. Stop using logical fallacy to make your points. You will be banned if this keeps up.

[Edtharan]

It never said that you could see the whole world, it just said that the Devil showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world,

Key word "All".

 

Mt Everest (tallest mountain in the world) is around 8,840 metres. This means that the horizon you could see would be around 10km away.

 

I think even just 1 kingdom would be more than 20 in diameter. Therefore you could not see all the kingdoms in the world from even the tallest mountain.

 

which could have happened with a miracle.

But this is exactly how a con artist would want you to think. Back in the american old west days, there were travelling salesmen that would go around selling tonics (one of the ingredients they would ay was in the tonic was "Snake Oil" - and they became known as snake oil salesmen). Often they would claim these tonics had miraculous powers of healing.

 

These tonics had no medicinal function. But, still some people would get better. Not this was not because the tonic actually did anything, but it was because our bodies are really good at fighting off disease and recovering from injury.

 

However, people would put it down to the tonic because that is what they were told the tonic would do.

 

So, it wasn't a miracle, nor was it magic, but instead, just our bodies doing what they do. The Snake Oil salesmen would of course (being the con artists they were) use this belief in miracles to promote their products.

 

What this means is that if someone is claiming miracles, be careful of them as often they are either con artists, or victims of con artists.

 

As an hobby magician (that is magic tricks - not real magic) I use these very same techniques, not to cheat people, but to entertain them. I say what I do are miracles, but I know they are not (just clever words and using people's belief in miracles) and as the audience knows that I am a performer, they don't go away really believing that I can work miracles.

 

Miracles match realality, because many Christians have experianced them, like my mom. Now, it's not like this was impossible, but have you ever been walking, and then you just stop, for no reason? You have no clue how stopped. That happened to her, when she was walking towards her car in a parking lot. She was very close, then, she stopped, and a dump truck ran right over her car.Why?

What about a miracles for the 5 year old child in Africa that has a worm that has burrowed into her leg and slowly killing her. Or someone with cancer that is slowly killing them. Where are the miracles for these people?

 

Not everything in the in the universe (even if God exists) has to occur to some master plan. If it did, then we would have no free will (and the beliefs of Christianity would be thus invalidated).

 

There can thus be chance events. What your mother experienced could be a chance event, not a miracle. Sure, you might want to see it as a miracle, and perhaps it really was, but there is no evidence to actually allow us to decide if it was or not.

 

It is only because you want to believe it is a miracle that you think it is a miracle, but even if God exists, then He might have had nothing to do with that at all. If you can give us some clear proof that it really was a miracle (like actual teleporting out of the way, or the hand of God coming down and stopping your mother - or even that she experienced a vision that mad her want to stop). As it stand, all we have is that your mother was lucky, not divinely protected.

 

1. Christianity is the biggest religion in the world

Might want to read this wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

 

2. I have never seen any miracles from other religions

And I have never seen a miracle from Christianity. So what? Does that mean that Christianity must be wrong becausse I (or a single specific person) hasn't seen a miracle?

 

There are many cases where other religions claim miracles (check out the Oracles of the Hellenistic traditions). Every single religion that has ever existed claims miracles. Actually, according to the Norse religions, every time you see a lightning bolt and hear thunder, that is a miracle. Wow, I see then all the time, many times a year, an I have never seen a miracle form Christianity. SO does this mean that we all should worship Odin and Thor?

 

I think that it means there will be more of them, and they will be more severe.

But, Christians have been saying this for nearly 2000 years. I wonder what each of those thought when it didn't happen?

 

You also have to be precise about the time. I can say that an asteroid will strike the Earth. However, if I don't put a time on that, then I will eventually be right, but it could be in 1,000,000 years from now.

 

Geologists, Seismologists and Vulcanologists, when they make a forecast about these things, they put a time frame for it to happen in. Sure, they are not always 100% correct, but they have been more correct than the Christians have (2000 years without the apocalypse and still no success - compared to hundreds of successes in the last 100 years for the scientists).

 

So, give us a time that we can check, and, if you are wrong, you must then admit that your beliefs are wrong (because you would have believed something that is demonstrably wrong - ie: the end of the word didn't happen).

 

Actually, if you do look at the historical data about disasters, they are occurring less frequently now than over the last 2,000 years. Wars are less frequent, volcanoes are down and so on. This means according to the actual data, you have already been proven wrong (you believe that they are getting worse).

 

What has increased is the reporting of them. We are more likely to encounter the information that a disaster has occurred now than at any point in the past. Because we hear a lot of reports on such occurrences, than we did years before, we tend to think that they are increasing, but instead it is the reporting and our exposure to them that is increasing.

 

All unjustness will be made up to the Christians after their death.

What proof do you have of this?

 

A Con man would tell you that if you do thins thing, then you will eventually be rewarded. Think if the Bank of Nigeria Scams that when around (and still do). These were emails sent to people which requested people to help someone get their money out of a bank and that if they did the person helping would receive hundreds of thousands of dollars, but they had to put an advance of a few hundred dollars for paperwork.

 

Of course, the people who gave the money never recieved any back, but they really believed they would get those hundreds of thousands of dollars as a reward.

 

To me, this just sounds like the same scam: "I'll give you an amazing reward some time in the future, but you have to do this for me first..."

 

So, if we are looking to see if this could be a scam by the devil (or Loki of you want to convert to the Norse Gods ), then the fact that there exist scams (not by the devil, or Loki) that follow the exact same template must raise the spectre of doubt.

 

So, again, how can we determine if this claim is true or a lie?

 

Check with reality.

 

Do we have any proof of Heaven? Do we have proof that Christians will get justice in it? (Maybe the Christians are wrong and we go to Valhalla instead)

 

If you can't answer these questions and provide evidence to support your answers, then you don't have proof that you are not being lied to. You can not know that you are not being deceived.

 

It doesn't say you can't.

But this was in response to your post that those that don't follow God and turn away from him will have their love grow cold. In other words, you said we can't. Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

 

But there's lots of evidence, it's not blind.

Give us some then.

[Arete]

It never said that you could see the whole world, it just said that the Devil showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, which could have happened with a miracle. Miracles match realality, because many Christians have experianced them, like my mom. Now, it's not like this was impossible, but have you ever been walking, and then you just stop, for no reason? You have no clue how stopped. That happened to her, when she was walking towards her car in a parking lot. She was very close, then, she stopped, and a dump truck ran right over her car.Why?

 

I was stopped at an intersection. The road perpendicular comes down a large hill to the traffic lights. When my light went green I hesitated. Right as the car behind me started to honk its horn, a fully laden truck went through the opposing red light with failed brakes. Did God stop me? If so, why did God waste a "miracle" on a non-christian? It's simply far more plausible that I noticed something wrong with my peripheral senses and the action they were warning me about happened beofre I had time to consiously perceive the threat.

 

1. Christianity is the biggest religion in the world

 

Whilst true, over 2/3rds of the world are not Christian. Most of the humans - which God supposedly holds an incomprehensibly deep love for are condemned to burn in hell for eternity, for not holding a belief. Given believing or not believing in something is not a conscious choice but a position you are compelled to by consideration of the evidence, God will punish most people with incomprehensible severity for eternity, for something beyond their control. That rather at odds with incomprehensibly deep love, don't you think?

 

2. I have never seen any miracles from other religions

Here's some miracles Islam claims: http://www.miraclesofislam.com/

Here's some attributed to Budda: http://en.wikipedia...._Gautama_Buddha

Here's some for hinduism: http://en.wikipedia....du_milk_miracle

 

you get the picture.

 

But there's lots of evidence, it's not blind.

 

What prediction does the existence of God make and how can we measure it?

Edited March 17, 2012 by Arete