Eternal Heaven Problem

[Dean Mullen]

If heaven existed spending eternity in heaven would be very problematic because spending an eternity in heaven is almost impossible because within eternity everything possible must happen including you leaving heaven after being there X amount of time and even if you could spend eternity there. Its been proven that within eternity every possible outcome must transpire thus this means after sometime every event will occur, yet the bible speaks of a place in which you have eternal joy but it is impossible to have eternal joy because sorrow is possible so it must transpire yet don't worry joy will return, in fact it must.

[zapatos]

If heaven existed spending eternity in heaven would be very problematic because spending an eternity in heaven is almost impossible because within eternity everything possible must happen including you leaving heaven after being there X amount of time and even if you could spend eternity there. Its been proven that within eternity every possible outcome must transpire thus this means after sometime every event will occur, yet the bible speaks of a place in which you have eternal joy but it is impossible to have eternal joy because sorrow is possible so it must transpire yet don't worry joy will return, in fact it must.

Citation?

[Mr Skeptic]

What evidence do you have that any of the things you say are possible, are possible?

[Phi for All]

And another literal interpretation runs into the inevitable paradox....

[A Tripolation]

If heaven existed spending eternity in heaven would be very problematic because spending an eternity in heaven is almost impossible because within eternity everything possible must happen including you leaving heaven after being there X amount of time and even if you could spend eternity there. Its been proven that within eternity every possible outcome must transpire thus this means after sometime every event will occur, yet the bible speaks of a place in which you have eternal joy but it is impossible to have eternal joy because sorrow is possible so it must transpire yet don't worry joy will return, in fact it must.

 

This is all assuming that anything related to this world, like logic and sorrow, still matters in heaven. Most Christians don't think this is the case.

[lemur]

Another way to look at it is that heaven is a conceptual ideal that is only relevant insofar as it can be imagined within the mind of the believer. There may be no actual experience after death, but during life the idea of heaven may be quite inspirational, as can eternal life. Personally, I like to look at eternal life in terms of reincarnation or some other plausible way of fathoming life without death. Then, "heaven" and "hell" can refer to relative states of action-expererience re-inforcement. Life is viewed as non-terminal simply to shift the focus to the "now" in which sustainable patterns are created and maintained. "Heaven," thus would be a sustainable pattern of peace and happiness without fear of death or misery of life. "Hell," on the other hand, would be a growing "fire" of negativity, fear, destruction, hate, unforgiveness, reaction, etc. that consumes people in negative reactions to negativity. "Heaven" is achieved by attaining a sustainable state of forgiveness while "hell" is "ignited" by reacting to the various forms of temptation that make (inner and outer) peace and forgiveness increasingly less fathomable.

 

The concept of eternal life has various spiritual/psychological functions in this sense, imo. 1) It diffuses death as a fear factor or something negative to react against and thus be tempted into negativity (hell). 2) it prevents the thought that happiness is only temporary and therefore sad 3) it prevents the thought that any negative consequences for "sin" will stop at death; which can be a method people use to validate unsustainable choices, e.g. "might as well smoke b/c you have to die of something," "might as well have fun b/c you only live once" etc. Eternal life ideology promotes making lifestyle choices that are potentially sustainable for eternity, if you would live that long. Another way to look at it is that you are setting examples that if younger generations were to replicate would not eventually result in a "hellish" existence for them.

[Dean Mullen]

What evidence do you have that any of the things you say are possible, are possible?

 

I don't believe in heaven I am just pointing out if it is real then there's a major problem with it so I am just trying to resolve superstition. I respect religious beliefs but I have my own.

 

This is all assuming that anything related to this world, like logic and sorrow, still matters in heaven. Most Christians don't think this is the case.

 

Well of course that is possible and by possible I don't mean physically possible I mean possible as in completely possible. Completely possible attains anything that could be possible in any hypothetical world. So yes if heaven existed it could overcome these great problems by having different laws of reality yet there is no evidence for this. I am not denying it because there is no evidence yet, because I believe in many of my own personal theories without observable evidence such as reincarnation (not heaven just earth-based reincarnation) so I understand your claims, so I won't deny until heaven is proven false in every way possible.

[Mrs Zeta]

Another way to look at it is that heaven is a conceptual ideal that is only relevant insofar as it can be imagined within the mind of the believer. There may be no actual experience after death, but during life the idea of heaven may be quite inspirational, as can eternal life. Personally, I like to look at eternal life in terms of reincarnation or some other plausible way of fathoming life without death. Then, "heaven" and "hell" can refer to relative states of action-expererience re-inforcement. Life is viewed as non-terminal simply to shift the focus to the "now" in which sustainable patterns are created and maintained. "Heaven," thus would be a sustainable pattern of peace and happiness without fear of death or misery of life. "Hell," on the other hand, would be a growing "fire" of negativity, fear, destruction, hate, unforgiveness, reaction, etc. that consumes people in negative reactions to negativity. "Heaven" is achieved by attaining a sustainable state of forgiveness while "hell" is "ignited" by reacting to the various forms of temptation that make (inner and outer) peace and forgiveness increasingly less fathomable.

 

 

An Archbishop once told me that Heaven and Hell exist only in one's mind during life. If you have a tormented, hateful, distructive mind you are already in Hell. If you are happy, loving and forgiving you are already in Heaven.

[lemur]

An Archbishop once told me that Heaven and Hell exist only in one's mind during life. If you have a tormented, hateful, distructive mind you are already in Hell. If you are happy, loving and forgiving you are already in Heaven.

Oh thank goodness I'm not the first person who thought of it. I was afraid they were going to saint me and then martyr me for it It is pretty logical, though, especially from the perspective of someone who can dare to contemplate the fact that religion has life on Earth as its main source of insight and focus of influence. Ideas of afterlife are primarily significant for their influence on the here and now.

Edited March 4, 2011 by lemur

[Marat]

So according to the Archbishop, to go to 'Heaven' we should all have a lobotomy?

[Mrs Zeta]

So according to the Archbishop, to go to 'Heaven' we should all have a lobotomy?

 

Have a lobotomy if you wish, or just actively try to see the good points in life, ignore the problems and pain, work to relieve suffering and find pleasure in small 'insignificant' things such as enjoying a glass of cool water. There is no other Heaven....

[lemur]

Have a lobotomy if you wish, or just actively try to see the good points in life, ignore the problems and pain, work to relieve suffering and find pleasure in small 'insignificant' things such as enjoying a glass of cool water. There is no other Heaven....

Don't forget about the Christian belief that suffering can be a means of imitating Christ's cross-bearing and thereby achieve deliverance from pain. You don't have to destructively self-persecute like the way people used to whip themselves, etc. Many people do it subtly through fasting and/or various meditations. You can also just look for the life-lessons in various forms of adversity and witness how deliverance emerges from your perseverance through immanent conditions.

[Marat]

If you study seriously the work of phenomenologists (e.g., Husserl, Heidegger, Merleau-Ponty) who have thoroughly investigated at a very deep level the type of being humans have, I think it will be clear that these kinds of solutions won't work. We cannot escape the fact that we are always living in three orientations towards time: our past, the present, and our future prospects, so the old saw that we should 'just enjoy the moment' can't suffice for the kind of beings that we are, though it might work well enough for amphibians and zombies. Heidegger in 'Being and Time' has a very neat proof that an essential part of the type of being humans have is 'Sorge' or 'concern' (worry), about their surroundings, and if we seek to abstract this from what we our we really only commit intellectual and spiritual suicide by trying to deny what we have to be in order to be ourselves.

[rktpro]

If heaven existed spending eternity in heaven would be very problematic because spending an eternity in heaven is almost impossible because within eternity everything possible must happen including you leaving heaven after being there X amount of time and even if you could spend eternity there. Its been proven that within eternity every possible outcome must transpire thus this means after sometime every event will occur, yet the bible speaks of a place in which you have eternal joy but it is impossible to have eternal joy because sorrow is possible so it must transpire yet don't worry joy will return, in fact it must.

 

No, one who attains God by devotion is given the Holy Abode by God. This is for always. Hindu scriptures say- Sada pasyanti surayah tad vishnoh parmam padam- means that one who attains the Lord is happy for always.

According to Vedas (hindu scriptures), heaven is termed as two places. 1- where you go when you have done a good deed. When the result of deed ends, you have to get back to earth and attains bodies out of 84 lakh bodies. You have no choice here. This too is granted in response to your earlier deeds.

2- The Adobe of God, where he resides is also called heaven. One who attains him by devotion remains there for always. He can wish to come to earth if he wants. He attains eternal Bliss.

 

Now which of the two heavens you means?

[lemur]

If you study seriously the work of phenomenologists (e.g., Husserl, Heidegger, Merleau-Ponty) who have thoroughly investigated at a very deep level the type of being humans have, I think it will be clear that these kinds of solutions won't work. We cannot escape the fact that we are always living in three orientations towards time: our past, the present, and our future prospects, so the old saw that we should 'just enjoy the moment' can't suffice for the kind of beings that we are, though it might work well enough for amphibians and zombies. Heidegger in 'Being and Time' has a very neat proof that an essential part of the type of being humans have is 'Sorge' or 'concern' (worry), about their surroundings, and if we seek to abstract this from what we our we really only commit intellectual and spiritual suicide by trying to deny what we have to be in order to be ourselves.

I don't find it cognitively difficult to conceptualize both past and future as being features of an ongoing present. I can also conceptualize the past and future as separate from the present, but I find this to be more of a subjective projection than an empirical state of affairs. After all, the future can't exist prior to the causes that produce the effects that render it as it becomes; and the past can't continue to exist in the form that it did prior to the causes of the effects that transformed it into the present. So both past and future are really more representational than the present, insofar as the present can be directly engaged. Past and future are just ways of modeling time as being fragmented into sequential moments. I don't see how the subjective ability to imagine them suffices as evidence of their existence beyond subjectivity. Nevertheless, I agree with you that it would be difficult if not impossible to conceive of things and events without projecting antecedent moments or future potentialities onto them. It is, however, possible to interact/engage situations in the present with a sense that the effects of ones action also take place in the present. E.g. as I type this post, I am not thinking about some of it being in the past and/or the future - rather I'm just typing what I have to say in the present (subjectively speaking).

[Marat]

I think what Heidegger is saying is that for the type of being which humans have, the present is always being overshadowed and profoundly colored by what we remember and what we anticipate is coming. This is why the privilege of ordering and eating exactly the meal you want just prior to your execution would not be much fun, or having your newly-polished shoes splashed by a rude cab driver as you leave the ceremony which presented you with the Nobel Prize for Medicine and Physiology would not be all that irritating. The true horror of death must be having to live while knowing that death is imminent, so that there is no longer that familiar overshadowing of the present by a future of possibilities which can change it, develop it, and give it new meanings, but just a blank wall against which all prospects will soon collide.

[Edtharan]

If heaven existed spending eternity in heaven would be very problematic because spending an eternity in heaven is almost impossible because within eternity everything possible must happen including you leaving heaven after being there X amount of time and even if you could spend eternity there. Its been proven that within eternity every possible outcome must transpire thus this means after sometime every event will occur, yet the bible speaks of a place in which you have eternal joy but it is impossible to have eternal joy because sorrow is possible so it must transpire yet don't worry joy will return, in fact it must.

The important words here are: "everything possible". If it is impossible for you to leave heaven, then you can be in heaven for an eternity because it is impossible for you to leave it, thus you would never leave it no matter how long you were in it.