Somthing from nothing?

[36grit]

I read somewhere that protons are made up of eight quarks. So, now I'm wondering what are quarks made of?

Is it probable that we'll discover something that was made from nothing at all?

What will the math look like? 0x0=0 but 0+0=2 zeros?

 

 

How many layers of infinite zeros does it take to equal a single instant of time?

What kind of energy could exist where there is no state of reality? that is to say: Zero length, width, depth, and zero time?

The energy of infinite nothing?

If we say, "Everything came from one big nothing". Then nothing must be at least somthing and there was one of them.

if nothing is nothing and one of them is something then there are two of them, four of, eight and so on and so on.

so 0/1=everyting.

 

Nothing itself must have divided into it's smallest part or form. At wich point it must have inverted into the momentums of a time line and the subatomic particles that make up and define the speed and electro magnetic pressure of light.

 

 

 

 

[timo]

I read somewhere that protons are made up of eight quarks.

Three. And a lot of Gluon stuff that is usually not mentioned to keep the picture simple.

 

So, now I'm wondering what are quarks made of?

They're considered to be elementary, i.e. not made up from more fundamental building blocks.

 

Is it probable that we'll discover something that was made from nothing at all?

What will the math look like? 0x0=0 but 0+0=2 zeros?

Like I said, the quark, along with the the much-easier-to-understand electrons, are supposed to be basic building blocks of the universe which are not made up from anything more fundamental. Not being composed of anything more basic is probably not the same as "made up from nothing" (whatever that may actually mean), tough. So in your math-like formulation, the standard view would be something like "1 electron = 1 electron = just that: 1 electron".

Whether it is possible that we discover something actually built from basic building blocks of "nothing"? Dunno: I cannot imagine what that means. Whether I think it's probable: No. I can't even imagine what it means.

[alpha2cen]

There was something from the beginning of the Universe. Nothing can not make anything. Is there the begin in the Universe? Is total energy zero at the beginning of the Universe? This part is difficult to answer.

Alternative answer is there might exist the other forms of states which make present Universe energy.

[seismic dunedain]

 

How many layers of infinite zeros does it take to equal a single instant of time?

 

 

 

an infinite layer of zeros would equal zero.

 

If we say, "Everything came from one big nothing". Then nothing must be at least somthing and there was one of them.

 

Everything did not come from one big nothing. We don't know what caused our universe to come into existence. call it God(actually, there is something called the fine tuning problem which suggests that our universe might have had to have been created by God and this is the subject of Stephen Hawkings book The Grand Design) or if you don't like God, you can imagine that maybe our universe is like a bubble and it formed by popping off of a much larger universe(the collection of all these conjectured universes is often referred to as the multi-verse) But whatever explanation you like, the fact is that we just don't know what caused the big bang, but there had to have been energy and fundamental forces at least to have caused it.

 

 

[36grit]

It seems as if almost everyone agrees that quarks, muons, energy, and other fundamentle elements existed before time began. It is also understood that space (ie: distance) was created at some point during the big bang. So, what many of you are suggesting is that these things either do not posses lenth, width, depth, and time, or that there was a space and time that they existed in that was some how different than our own.

 

It seems to me that if these things occupy space than they were born out of space and that space itself must truly be the only fundamentle element, or at the very least, that the space occupied by the fundamentles had to have been created at the same time as the fundamentles and that the space that they moved through must have been transformed into the time and space of our universe.

 

A forward linear time line should start at zero. Quarks and muons are not zero entities. Therefore they must have developed after time began. However, energy might have existed because it moves at the speed of light, wich does not occupy time.

We can measure energy with time, wave length, and cycles per second, but I can see where a prime energy could exist without space or time. It would just have nowhere to go or would exist everywhere all at once, seeing how everywhere was nowhere it's not so hard to imagine Perhaps fundementle particles are prime energies some how captured or embodied by time at the instant/s of creation.

To say that nothing can come from nothing is not an accurate statement. QED as I understand it says that positive and negative energy pops up into existence out of nothing at all and vibrates the protons. This same energy pops up in space and sometimes twirls around creating a virtual atom before they anihalate each other. So what we have come to understand is that nothing has a power and an energy. These particles have to travel through space to annahalte each other. Space is time, but quantum space seems to be different and it seems to have existed before time and I think the rules (including logic and math) also change at this level. Something from nothing at this level is not only possible but probable. Absolute nothing is probably impossible.

[swansont]

It seems as if almost everyone agrees that quarks, muons, energy, and other fundamentle elements existed before time began.

 

I think if you investigated further you'd find this to be false.

[steevey]

I think if you investigated further you'd find this to be false.

 

If he's saying they existed before the big bang happened, scientists have no idea. I've been to a few lectures an every time someone asks something about the big bang itself or before the big bang, the physicists just immediately ducks for cover or gets away from that topic, because we have no idea. It's not that its wrong, but no one can tell either.

Edited March 10, 2011 by steevey

[swansont]

If he's saying they existed before the big bang happened, scientists have no idea. I've been to a few lectures an every time someone asks something about the big bang itself or before the big bang, the physicists just immediately ducks for cover or gets away from that topic, because we have no idea. It's not that its wrong, but no one can tell either.

 

Which means the claim (that almost everyone agrees they existed) is false. Which is what I said.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

an infinite layer of zeros would equal zero.

 

 

Everything did not come from one big nothing. We don't know what caused our universe to come into existence. call it God(actually, there is something called the fine tuning problem which suggests that our universe might have had to have been created by God and this is the subject of Stephen Hawkings book The Grand Design) or if you don't like God, you can imagine that maybe our universe is like a bubble and it formed by popping off of a much larger universe(the collection of all these conjectured universes is often referred to as the multi-verse) But whatever explanation you like, the fact is that we just don't know what caused the big bang, but there had to have been energy and fundamental forces at least to have caused it.

 

 

 

I have a theory for this one " Something from nothing ". But in view of the rules of the forum I better put it in the " Do you have a new theory ? " thread at the top of this quantum Physics section.

 

I'll call it " A Lingual / NON-Mathematical THEORY OF EVERYTHING ".

Edited March 11, 2011 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[36grit]

I don't see how you could get something from nothing, but I've been thinking.

Perhaps energies wich do not occupy time could have existed before time. Time stands still at the speed of light. Light is an ellectromagnetic wave if I remember right. So it's perfectly acceptable to think that electro magnetic "entities" exist outside of and before our universe (time).

Things that exist outside of time probably wouldn't have to obey the rules of time unless moving through a "pool" of time at wich point they have to travel on a wave of time.

If time is space and space is distance, than it's perfectly plausable that in this dimension energy particles could move from here to there in a quantum manner.

 

 

[lemur]

Things that exist outside of time probably wouldn't have to obey the rules of time unless moving through a "pool" of time at wich point they have to travel on a wave of time.

Which "rules of time" are you referring to exactly?

If time is space and space is distance, than it's perfectly plausable that in this dimension energy particles could move from here to there in a quantum manner.

How is your conclusion related to the if-statement it follows?

[36grit]

Which "rules of time" are you referring to exactly?

 

How is your conclusion related to the if-statement it follows?

 

Before time there was no distance.

 

Rules like: To move from here to there in the universe one must travel through the space inbetween. The space inbetween is time.

and ones like you cannot exist in two places at once. and one cannot pop in and out of reality.

 

I guess I'm saying that it's a plausable argument to say that energy particles could and probably did exist before the big bang (of time).

[lemur]

Before time there was no distance.

 

Rules like: To move from here to there in the universe one must travel through the space inbetween. The space inbetween is time.

and ones like you cannot exist in two places at once. and one cannot pop in and out of reality.

 

I guess I'm saying that it's a plausable argument to say that energy particles could and probably did exist before the big bang (of time).

I see what you're saying now. I think you should address the relationship between quantum 'weirdness' and the kinds of spacetime-rules you describe. For example, I think that there is a reason that quantum mechanics emerge into classical mechanics at super-atomic levels. Since I assume that all the energy of the universe was present in the form of force-potential prior to the big bang, I would be interested to know how quantum mechanics would operate within a total concentration of force to the point that no classical motion would be occurring.

[IM Egdall]

Perhaps energies wich do not occupy time could have existed before time.

 

Oy. I know it can be hard to use language to try and describe what is going on, but if there was no time, how could there have been a "before" time?

[Phi for All]

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Moderator Note

An attempt to hijack this thread with another speculative hypothesis has been removed to the Trash Can (in the interests of transparency). Efforts to help one non-mainstream idea with another non-mainstream idea may seem helpful to the one posting it, but it only serves to make a discussion about the original more difficult and confusing.

 

Please consider how difficult it is to provide evidence for speculations and have respect for your fellow members. Hijacking is against the rules you agreed to when you joined. Keep your speculative ideas in your own threads,

 

If you have a problem with this modnote, please use the Report Post function. Do NOT further derail this thread by discussing it here.

[swansont]

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Moderator Note

Update - the moved post is in speculations

[36grit]

Wow, here's an old thread. I don't really believe that anything came from nothing. The vacuum energy was and is always there. Existing at the very least as an anihilation particle dialating on demand in every dimension within and without their infinite bands hitting the notes that please them, yes the light, life and words have always been. Look at how small we are and look at the things that we create and intend to create in the near and distant future, think we wern't created? Those that have proud and stiff necks cannot see beyond there own shadows and think within themselves that we all evolved from from nothing and darkness and it was bound to happen sooner or later, and this is where they dwell; and the home that they have built. and don't we all love to go home and relax? What is hope? that we escape and litter the universe with savage planets like ours? Every man fights and dies for his God according to their own faith. Science is but the particles of phillosephy. Every thought already exists. War accelerates knowledge, power, predjudice and hate.

 

 

Ref: my old thread on plane theory and thought particles right here in the speculations forum ofcourse

Edited February 12, 2013 by 36grit