Cars as Refuge from Tsunamis (formerly Japanese Nuclear Reactor Frailty)

[Airbrush]

It seems to me that a car should be water-tight, so you can survive a tsunami by getting inside your car. But I think cars are death traps in a tsunami. Anyone know how long it would take a car's cabin to fill with water if getting battered around by debris from a tsunami? I propose people living in vulnerable areas should have water-tight cars and it doesn't seem like such a difficult thing to water-proof a car's cabin.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Airbrush

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

I don't think the issue is drowning inside your car. It's having your car lifted by the wave and smashed into buildings that does a bit of damage.

[Phi for All]

There's already a Japanese Reactor thread open, so I'll respond to a different part of your OP.

 

I propose people living in vulnerable areas should have water-tight cars and it doesn't seem like such a difficult thing to water-proof a car's cabin.

How do you ventilate a water-tight vehicle? I'm not sure a "Tsunami Mode" option to close off outside air/water would really be marketable. Sort of like trying to sell an optional parachute for cars that drive near cliffs and "might" drive off one someday. There's a line that has to be drawn somewhere when guarding against eventualities.

[Horza2002]

To be honest, if I was in a car and a tsunami was heading towards me, I would be FAR mroe worried about being sweep away and crushed against something then drowning! Look at the photos from Japan, cars are just swept away....being crushed os far more dangerous than drowning!

 

To be honest, if I was in a car and a tsunami was heading towards me, I would be FAR mroe worried about being sweep away and crushed against something then drowning! Look at the photos from Japan, cars are just swept away....being crushed os far more dangerous than drowning!

[Airbrush]

Thanks for the replies! If I was living in a vulnerable area, like Huntington Beach California, and a tsunami 30 feet high was carrying all kinds of deadly debris towards me, I would get inside my car. It would protect me better than anywhere else. After all the violent battering, then you will need to get out of your car and climb to the top of the pile.

[John Cuthber]

There's a fairly good chance your car would be buried under the debris, but don't worry. You won't need to consider the problem for very long in an airtight container.

[insane_alien]

....being crushed os far more dangerous than drowning!

 

I didn't know that there was anything more deadly than death

[Airbrush]

There's a fairly good chance your car would be buried under the debris, but don't worry. You won't need to consider the problem for very long in an airtight container.

 

If the car was airtight it would also probably be watertight and you would be glad for that because you would have hours of breathable air. If not watertight (or airtight) your car will flood with water withing 30 minutes.

 

You will probably not be buried under debris, because a boyant car will float. Then when it is safe you exit your car and climb to the top of the heap and light a flare when you see rescue coming.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

You will probably not be buried under debris, because a boyant car will float. Then when it is safe you exit your car and climb to the top of the heap and light a flare when you see rescue coming.

Buoyant cars won't float when fast-moving debris propelled by the tsunami waves buries it, breaking the glass and generally smashing it up.

[Airbrush]

True, but many cars will not be buried under debris, nor their windows smashed. What would you do? Would you get inside your car, so you have a chance, or give up and surrender to the big crush standing alone and helpless? Safer inside a car, especially if it is watertight, than on a rooftop or anywhere else.

 

After the Indonesian tsunami of 12-26-04, I proposed tsunami survival barges attached to the roofs of houses. It would be totally enclosed, like a big coffin, and give you a chance but no guarantee of survival.

 

There is a lot of jostling among the debris, but after a little while it become a huge conveyor belt and only cars on the perimeter will be seriously smashed. If you happen to be in the "middle of the stampeding herd" you will be floating and relatively safe.

 

Also, if there is no quick escape from a tsunami, it might help to have an underground shelter equiped with extraction tools (saws, axes, shovels, etc) with an exit designed in a way to facilitate exit into a mountain of debris after the water subsides.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Airbrush

[jackson33]

Amphibious vehicles are already available, but extremely costly and impractical for daily use. The times to fill the average auto, would depend on several things, open windows, gaps in peddles (linkage), heating or air paraphernalia, trunk structure and so on, but if in deeper water will sink, before completely filled. As suggested the last place to be during a tsunami, might be your car. Those picture/films of the Japanese Tsunami, tossing around all vehicles, trucks, homes and debris is pretty explicit.

 

Most US Nuclear Reactor containment units are built to withstand large aircraft impacts or major earthquakes and since the Japanese models withstood one of the worst ever magnitude quakes (9.0, 5th highest on record), several times what they were designed for, I believe any US facility could. Of course, if a Nuclear Plant (San Diego/LA) was operational during the worst ever earthquake say 50 miles off shore and a tsunami followed, causing power failures, the theory that will get promoted is, yes the same things could happen here. I don't know if California has a history of the type a quake as was in Japan (one fault going under another), but I don't think so and these are typically the worse...

 

 

There are three main types of fault that may cause an earthquake: normal, reverse (thrust) and strike-slip. Normal and reverse faulting are examples of dip-slip, where the displacement along the fault is in the direction of dip and movement on them involves a vertical component. Normal faults occur mainly in areas where the crust is being extended such as a divergent boundary. Reverse faults occur in areas where the crust is being shortened such as at a convergent boundary. Strike-slip faults are steep structures where the two sides of the fault slip horizontally past each other; transform boundaries are a particular type of strike-slip fault. Many earthquakes are caused by movement on faults that have components of both dip-slip and strike-slip; this is known as oblique slip.[/Quote]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake

 

I see you have edited your thread, but left in my answers, there not valid on the other thread, either...

[swansont]

Instead of a watertight car, how about a warning system so you can drive yourself to safety?

[zapatos]

If the car was airtight it would also probably be watertight and you would be glad for that because you would have hours of breathable air. If not watertight (or airtight) your car will flood with water withing 30 minutes.

 

Of course you may die long before the tsunami on you first long road trip...

 

Also, if there is no quick escape from a tsunami, it might help to have an underground shelter equiped with extraction tools (saws, axes, shovels, etc) with an exit designed in a way to facilitate exit into a mountain of debris after the water subsides.

 

So when the water comes in, while everyone is running for high ground, you propose to go underground where the water is going to flow? And if you don't drown because your underground shelter is flooded, but is instead airtight (even after the earthquake), then you suffocate?

 

I'm holding out for another solution.

[random]

Yes It seems to me there should be some sort of "hiccup" that would tell of the impending disaster.........there probably is and some likely knew about the earthquake shortly before it happened, The problem is how do you almost immediately warn an entire country? or even a city for that matter? In time of war there is a warning system for impending attacks that functions without the use of mass media, sure maybe sirens are ugly and require ongoing maitenance to only be used for 5 minutes every 30-40 years but come on look at how many lives would have been saved.

 

As well those in the know likely knew a Tsunami would follow (i'm not sure how long after the quake) if the general public had of known I doubt they would have casually sat by the water. I watched the speed of the Tsunami and maybe it was misleading but it sure seemed to me you'd have time to get to high ground in a vehicle.

 

And as a final note Japan knows it is earthquake and Tsunami prone so it makes sense to me if you know it's gonna happen you don't build at or below sea level, The bridges were above the Tsunami wave so should have been all streets. I'm sure some safe guards will be put in place to keep people happy but will it be a false sense of security? Seeming as there will be alot of building happening I think it makes sense to construct buildings able to withstand (not all will be constructed in this fashion I am referring to the ones that are) with more stairs to enable ascent to higher ground and more exits. If your stuck on a lower floor inside while it's filling with water your going to drown and be pummelled.

[swansont]

It's my understanding that Japan has a very effective warning system and they run drills. As bad as things were, they could have been much, much worse.

[Airbrush]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake

 

I see you have edited your thread, but left in my answers, there not valid on the other thread, either...

 

Sorry I edited out my original questions, but thanks for the info which is very helpful. I wish I could change the title because the direction of this thread has little to do with Japanese nuclear reactor design, and everything to do with how to react to an impending tsunami.

 

Yes It seems to me there should be some sort of "hiccup" that would tell of the impending disaster.........there probably is and some likely knew about the earthquake shortly before it happened, The problem is how do you almost immediately warn an entire country? or even a city for that matter?

 

As well those in the know likely knew a Tsunami would follow (i'm not sure how long after the quake) if the general public had of known I doubt they would have casually sat by the water. I watched the speed of the Tsunami and maybe it was misleading but it sure seemed to me you'd have time to get to high ground in a vehicle.

 

I can't find information about how long after the quake the tsunami hit. Since the quake was so near the coastal towns, maybe the tsunami followed the quake by a matter of a few minutes or less. We usually think of tsunamis traveling long distances before they strike land. In this case the tsunami may have appeared almost immediately after the quake, or even before the shaking stopped. This may also have happened after the Indo quake of Dec 2004. Anyone know how long between the Indo quake and the first tsunami damage is caused?

 

So when the water comes in, while everyone is running for high ground, you propose to go underground where the water is going to flow? And if you don't drown because your underground shelter is flooded, but is instead airtight (even after the earthquake), then you suffocate?

 

I'm holding out for another solution.

 

For example, the houses in Malibu along Pacific Coast Hwy, if a similar quake and tsunami struck that area, there are few and narrow avenues of escape to high ground, only Pacific Coast Hwy. There would be a total traffic jam within a few minutes of warning. Either you die or you retreat to an underground shelter. There you can wait it out for days until the water returns to sea level. Then all you need to do is dig out thru tons of debris.

 

Maybe you can get away on a dirt bike which enables you to go off road and around or thru traffic jams. But you better have a pistol handy, because it takes only one driver with a gun to take you down and steal your dirt bike.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Airbrush

[Klaynos]

How water tight are cars?

 

 

Not very...

[swansont]

I can't find information about how long after the quake the tsunami hit.

 

The reactor timeline implies it was less than an hour after the quake that the tsunami hit that region — that was the time of generator loss resulting from the tsunami.

[Phi for All]

I wish I could change the title because the direction of this thread has little to do with Japanese nuclear reactor design, and everything to do with how to react to an impending tsunami.

Done. Let me know if the new title is OK.

[Airbrush]

Thanks for the title edit. Or how about "Cars as Refuge from Tsunamis"? Just a thought.

 

My next question is how much more would it cost to make a car water tight or air tight or both?

 

This could apply to other disasters, such as nuclear fallout, or biological or chemical weapons. You need filtered air to survive. If cars had adequate air filtration, you could jump in your car to avoid exposure to airborne nuclear fallout or other dangers.

 

Swansont: "The reactor timeline implies it was less than an hour after the quake that the tsunami hit that region — that was the time of generator loss resulting from the tsunami."

 

Interesting, but "less than an hour" can mean anywhere from seconds to 59 minutes. My guess is there was only a few minutes warning. The news said the quake hit at 2:46pm local time. So all we need is someone who can read Japanese and read for us the time stamp on any video of the first tsunami wave. That will tell us exactly how long it took the tsunami to hit.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Airbrush

[michel123456]

 

I can't find information about how long after the quake the tsunami hit.

 

20 minutes IIRC. Still looking for reliable source.

 

Only found this interesting map without the information I searched. And this image showing the spreading of the wave. All information from the wiki page.

 

The most impressive is maybe the simple

showing earthquakes in Japan between 9 March and 14 March. 1 hour ~ 1 second.

-----------------------

I don't think there is a reasonable way to protect from that kind of events. Just not be there when it happens.

Edited March 16, 2011 by michel123456

[Phi for All]

Thanks for the title edit. Or how about "Cars as Refuge from Tsunamis"? Just a thought.

Done.

 

My next question is how much more would it cost to make a car water tight or air tight or both?

It might make sense to start with something designed to be amphibious from the start. On first look, the Aquada seems promising, but I found no prices. Must be expensive. And I don't think it's meant to be totally submerged.

[CaptainPanic]

I think it's cheaper to build 20 meter high hills in every coastal village and along main coastal roads at regular intervals. This idea might sound a little bizarre, but it's very old, and has been used in the Netherlands for ages and ages. Albeit, the hills we have built are more like 5 meters, not 20 m.

 

Easier than making all the cars waterproof and smash-proof. You're essentially saying that cars should be more like tanks. That means they're heavier, more expensive, and less fuel efficient. While that's a noble idea, we have to realize that casualties cannot be prevented at all costs. There is a point where the costs are just too high.

[michel123456]

I think it's cheaper to build 20 meter high hills in every coastal village and along main coastal roads at regular intervals. This idea might sound a little bizarre, but it's very old, and has been used in the Netherlands for ages and ages. Albeit, the hills we have built are more like 5 meters, not 20 m.

 

(...)

 

Weird. Although being Belgian, close neighbour of Netherlands, I never heard of that. Those terps like so much with tumuli or with royal tombs of macedonian kings upon which houses were build without noticing the burrial hidden beneath.

It would be interesting that a tomb could save lives.

[Airbrush]

Interesting ideas CaptainPanic. What I was proposing is that only people living in an area that is very vulnerable to tsunamis and the routes of escape are few and limited. Those wealthy people living along the coast in Malibu, CA are in this situation. How much would it cost them to water proof only the passenger cabin of their cars? I don't believe that would be terribly expensive. Maybe it doesnt take much to stop the flow of water only into the passenger cabin. Then your car would float and provide some protection, without using armor or bullet proof glass.

 

All you need is to have doors and windows that seal and the air intake has an alternate route from a snorkle on the roof? So when anticipate a flood or tsunami, you and your family and pets all jump into your car and you press a button that shuts the usual air vent route and switch it to an alternate route that cannot take in water like a snorkle.

 

Thanks Michel for the estimated time elapsed from quake to tsunami arrival of 20 minutes. I think I recall hearing in a recent TV news report that the first wave arrived an estimated 18 minutes after the quake, but I could be wrong.

 

If these estimates are true, and the shaking lasted several minutes, that left as little as 15 minutes for them to extricate themselves from their damaged dwelling or work place, and sprint for high ground. Not enough time for thousands.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Airbrush