CaptainPanic Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 At this moment (01.40 AM, CET) a Dutch newspaper (link in Dutch) reports that Japan plans to drop water onto the Fukushima #4 nuclear reactor in order to cool it. It seems quite desperate, so I thought I'd tell you about it. Wikipedia at the moment (01.40 AM on Wed, CET) also has the same info, including 3 references for it: As of 15 March 2011 21:13 JST, radiation inside unit 4 had increased so much inside the control room that employees could not stay there permanently any more.[134] Seventy staff remained on site but 800 had been evacuated.[135] By 22:30 JST, TEPCO was reported to be unable to pour water into No. 4 reactor's storage pool for spent fuel.[136] At around 22:50 JST, it was reported that TEPCO was considering using helicopters to drop water on the spent fuel storage pool.[135][137][138] However, TEPCO soon dismissed the option of helicopters because of concerns over safety and effectiveness. TEPCO went on to consider the use of high-pressure fire hoses instead.[139] Other sources mention that this plan was deemed impractical, and instead: Early Wednesday, Japan abandoned plans to spray water from helicopters into an overheating spent fuel storage pool at the facility. A TEPCO spokesman said that helicopters were deemed impractical, but other options were under consideration, including fire engines. There were later reports that a boric acid drop was being considered. The situation in Japan is really confusing. News agencies keep updating their websites and pages, so linking is quite unreliable. One moment the info is there, the next it's gone. Bottom line to me is: The situation in Japan is quite desperate. Dropping stuff from helicopters does not seem like it's under control at all. I really feel for those guys there. I really wish them the best of luck to solve the problems. I hope that for once their lucky. I'm looking forward to some better news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackson33 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 CP; Briefly that attempt as been shut down, scrubbed, for now I think their going to have fire trucks go in spaying with sea water. However, as you say and I've indicated reports are continuously contradicting each other. The urgency is these fuel rods are NOT in any containment unit, ie. if they go into meltdown there is nothing to keep the fumes (however active) from entering the atmoshpere.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainPanic Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 CP; Briefly that attempt as been shut down, scrubbed, for now I think their going to have fire trucks go in spaying with sea water. However, as you say and I've indicated reports are continuously contradicting each other. The urgency is these fuel rods are NOT in any containment unit, ie. if they go into meltdown there is nothing to keep the fumes (however active) from entering the atmoshpere.... The same newspaper opens this morning with a picture of a helicopter (looks like a chinook?) that carries water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel123456 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I am afraid the situation is not only technical. Too many bad informations have drowned japanese economy in its worst crisis. So it is also a national economic and political issue. I doubt from now on that it will be easy to discern between original information & information distilled by authorities. The situation is of national importance, they must control information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred V Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Does anyone know how to get a suggestion for cooling the reactors to the scene in Japan? Approximately how deep are the nuclear piles in the Japanese reactors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackson33 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 The same newspaper opens this morning with a picture of a helicopter (looks like a chinook?) that carries water. [/Quote] CP, I didn't doubt your comments, I wrote what I'd been seeing reported. In fact shortly after that was written, it was reported they had pulled everyone from the site "fire trucks & helicopters" and that it was from reactor #4. That reactor was in use, not the previously shut down one and is suspected a fractured container. If there is date on that picture (too small for me to see), then it only proves, reporting is...well, factually poor. Does anyone know how to get a suggestion for cooling the reactors to the scene in Japan? Approximately how deep are the nuclear piles in the Japanese reactors? [/Quote] Fred, if there is anyone around that should know how to make contact with the proper authorities to offer an idea, from your profile it might be you. I would suggest making contact with the Japanese Embassy in Washington DC and asking them, embellishing your expertise a bit. I am afraid the situation is not only technical. Too many bad informations have drowned japanese economy in its worst crisis. So it is also a national economic and political issue. I doubt from now on that it will be easy to discern between original information & information distilled by authorities. The situation is of national importance, they must control information. [/Quote] Good point michel, but lack of confidence for handling the situation is causing problems. One thing not being talked about is the over half trillion US bonds now being held by the Japanese and will no doubt in part be sold, to help rebuild. It is the third largest economy in the world, near that of China and there is a lot of International market concern hanging on what/how this event is handled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Does anyone know how to get a suggestion for cooling the reactors to the scene in Japan? Approximately how deep are the nuclear piles in the Japanese reactors? Regarding your suggestion of dropping liquid nitrogen (I saw it in status updates). Assuming you could deliver it as liquid nitrogen (dropping it from a helicopter to cool the building has the additional problem of it boiling off during the trip) Liquid nitrogen has a heat of vaporization of 0.16 MJ/L (MegaJoules per liter). Water's value is 2.26. IOW it takes 14 times more energy to boil water as an equal volume of liquid nitrogen, so in that regard water is 14 times more effective. Plus you can deliver it as a liquid and it takes energy to heat up to the boiling point; with LN you deliver it at the boiling point of 77K and then it's a gas, which will subsequently be under pressure and need to be vented that much sooner (if you are injecting this via pumps) The bulk of the cooling effect is the energy the LN absorbs heating up above that — this is important only because you heat up several hundred degrees, and is about 5 MJ/L to get you to the same temperature as the water you start with — if you don't have to vent it before then. (above that they have similar cooling effects) Overall, at best it's not that much more effective than water, which is readily available, and assuming that you could deliver equal volumes of both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel123456 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) Does anyone know how to get a suggestion for cooling the reactors to the scene in Japan? (...) Stupid idea: if we put sand first, I suspect sand will become kind of glass under extreme temperature. Then put water to solidify the surface. That should keep radiactivity inside the material. Edited March 17, 2011 by michel123456 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel123456 Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 (edited) Latest news: they plan to burry with sand and concrete. http://www.floridaoilspilllaw.com/japan-concedes-fukushima-reactors-be-buried-sand-concrete-like-chernobyl Logic wins. They must know that concrete contains water, and that this water is necessary for the chemical reaction to happen so that concrete becomes ...concrete. Without water, you only get dust. IOW you cannot use only concrete because water will evaporate at once. You first have to put a barrier. That will be the role of sand I presume. Edited March 18, 2011 by michel123456 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel123456 Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Height days after the idea, logic loses. Why? The accident raises to level 6. What are they expecting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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