Proof that Special and General Relativity is Incorrect

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

When you use multiple incredibly accurate atomic clocks and they tick more slowly at exactly the rate mathematically predicted by relativity, under various conditions.

 

There's other ways to do it, too; the spaceship could emit pulses of light at certain intervals, for example. Or you could watch the movements of the people inside, who would seem to be in slow motion.

[SeekingToUnderstand]

In the case of an arbitrary observer looking at an ideal clock on a spaceship (composed of two mirrors, incrementing every time the same photon bounces back and forth), it is no mystery why the clock ticks slower. The light has to go a longer distance because it has a horizontal movement added to its vertical movement. As far as the arbitrary observer is concerned, a longer distance (lightpath) with a constant speed of light means the clock ticks slower.

[swansont]

There are many clocks that tick slowly. How do you decide when this means that time is moving slowly and how do you decide when this means that the clock is broken?

 

In the context of the previous conversation regarding an arbitrary (randomly chosen) observer. If the observer has his own clock and sees that the clock on the spaceship is slow, shouldn't the observer come to the determination that the spaceship's clock is broken? And if the observer suspects that this is not a "typical" case of a broken clock, shouldn't the observer be able to look to the underlying mechanics of the clock to determine what is going on? Isn't it vital to be able to determine if a clock is only representative of itself or if it is representative of the system in which it is in. This is the deeper meaning of time that I am trying to understand and am asking for help in understanding.

 

A number of ways. You know the ways a clock can break, and you make sure those problems aren't present. You use multiple clocks and you see they all changed their behavior in the same way. You use multiple types of clocks and you see they all changed their behavior in the same way. And that this behavior varied in a predictable way when you changed the conditions of the experiment.

[SeekingToUnderstand]

I really can't speak to the topic of atomic clocks, because they have the disadvantage that their mechanism is not apparent as it is with the ideal light clock. But with the light clock, by the very nature of the mechanism, the ticks will be less frequent from the arbitrary observer's point of view and the slower time is merely a definition of the clock itself.

[Iggy]

"a clock" is synonymous (by definition) with "any means of measuring time". From an arbitrary observer's perspective, every means of measuring time that exists in another reference frame is slowed by the same amount.

 

A broken clock will simply disagree with all the other clocks in its reference frame.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Iggy

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

You can account for that effect very easily just by knowing the velocity of the spacecraft. You'll see the pulses being slow even if you account for the spacecraft's speed.

 

(It's a Doppler shift, like when an ambulance passes you and the pitch of the sound changes, and it's very easy to account for.)

[SeekingToUnderstand]

Consider the twins paradox which states that one twin returns to earth actually being much younger than the other twin. When time actually slowed for the younger twin, what actually was occurring to the movement of the particles that compose him? Were the atoms jiggling slower compared to the twin on earth? I have no idea, but this is what I am trying to understand.

[Iggy]

Were the atoms jiggling slower compared to the twin on earth?

 

Every means of measuring time, including how fast atoms vibrate, is slow from the earth twin's perspective.

[SeekingToUnderstand]

Cap'n Refsmmat,

I certainly don't believe I am referring to the doppler effect.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

What you refer to can be treated exactly the same way, because it is a very similar behavior.

[keelanz]

it was my belief relativity created time, if time didnt exist then neither would relativity but the fact your able to think regardless of all the external physical evidence proves that even your brain is relative to something ....... POW

[mooeypoo]

it was my belief relativity created time, if time didnt exist then neither would relativity but the fact your able to think regardless of all the external physical evidence proves that even your brain is relative to something ....... POW

 

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Moderator Note

If you want to discuss your own speculations, start your own thread.

 

 

Quoting from the Speculation Forum rules:

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(emphasis added on purpose. please follow the rules)

 

[SeekingToUnderstand]

I sincerely appreciate all the help that everyone has provided in helping me to understand this subject matter. I believe I am finally beginning to get more of a grasp on it and it is the most bizarre theory. If it possible for a theory to be both correct and insane at the same time, then surely SR and GR meets the criteria. (assuming they are correct)

[SeekingToUnderstand]

Suppose two spaceships originate at the same point on the x-axis and go in opposite directions, each moving at 0.8c. I would think that relative to one another either one would be moving at 1.6c. I know SR/GR states this is impossible. Why?

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Length contraction and time dilation, again. Now, if you're a stationary observer, you'd see each receding at 0.8c and you'd assume their relative velocity is 1.6c. However, if you were on one of the spaceships, you'd use this formula:

 

[math]v'=\frac{v-u}{1-uv/c^2}[/math]

 

where v is the velocity of the other spaceship (-0.8c) and u is the velocity of your reference frame compared to the observer (0.8c). (This is the equation for translating a velocity from one reference frame to another.) In this case, we'd arrive at a value of v' = -0.976c. From one spaceship, the other would appear to recede at -0.976c.