U.N. Gun Debate

[bloodhound]

no prob pangloss, i respect ur opinions.

 

anyway i was just browsing round and found this

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1233171/posts

 

seems to be some kind of republican thing. the comments made me crack up so much

[Pangloss]

Yeah, Free Republic is a pretty well-known conservative web site. If memory serves, they're mostly famous for the court decision that resulted in admins everywhere admonishing their members to not post news stories in their entirety on discussion boards. (chuckle) Their beer-and-pretzels adherents are commonly known as "freepers". I've spent a little time there. It's about the same quality of discussion that you see at DemocraticUnderground.com. (And why freep got sued instead of DU is something you get three guesses at, and the first two don't count.)

[atinymonkey]

I think DeGaulle was embarassed and embittered that the U.S. and Brits had to liberate his country after Hitler crushed them. He could never admit or come to terms that the great French empire was a piece of crap.

 

I'm not sure which history books you read but the British sustained substantial losses while trying to support the same French troops that were 'crushed'. Dunkirk saw the remnants of the British Army being driven back across the channel. There was nothing more the British could have done at the time, and nothing more that DeGaulle expected from them or the French. DeGaulle fought in the same battles with the British before the defeat, and became a POW in Colditz with many English Officers that he fought beside.

 

After W.W. I, the French were far from thinking they were a 'great French Empire'. They were beleaguered, tired, demoralized and still suffering from the after effects of W.W. I, that had turned France into the closest thing to Hell any place in history has ever become.

 

It's all very easy to sit a thousand miles away and label the French cowards, but you have no conception of the horrors the country lived through in order to protect the freedom of the world. The worst the US suffered was Pearl Harbor and Midway, not a single foreign solder put one toe on American soil. Courage is easy when you are strong, try it when your army has been massacred, rebuilt and massacred again; all on the streets outside your home. Try it when you are the only country in the world still standing against Fascism and overwhelming odds.

 

The reason the French don't like the Americans is because despite what they lived through, and the sacrifice of almost all French males between 16 and 40 twice in a century, the Americans still generally label them cowards.

 

They hate the British because we have fought wars against each other for over 800 years. That animosity is separate to the World Wars.

 

You can hate the French all you like, but to be frank, without the defence they put up you would be living in the Third Reich. That's the simple truth.

[Pangloss]

The reason the French don't like the Americans is because despite what they lived through, and the sacrifice of almost all French males between 16 and 40 twice in a century, the Americans still generally label them cowards.

 

I think that might explain some background animosity, but I imagine that in general most French *don't* hate Americans. As I understand it, if there's anger it's more directed at American leadership and foreign policy.

 

And I've been to Normandy, so I know what French respect looks like. Few can hold a candle to that.

[john5746]

Yes, add the Russians to the list. I guess we need to have a good war against France, to respect them. France seems to play the role of the protestor. They are a friend, but they aren't yes men. That can be frustrating at times (Libia?), but if we listen, we may avoid mistakes from time to time.

[atinymonkey]

I think that might explain some background animosity, but I imagine that in general most French *don't* hate Americans. As I understand it, if there's anger it's more directed at American leadership and foreign policy.

 

That's probably true, I was making a point rather than making a statement.

 

And I've been to Normandy, so I know what French respect looks like. Few can hold a candle to that.

 

I don't really know what your saying here. French respect looks like a beach? I used to spend 12 weeks in France every year, not just in Normandy, and I'm still not quite sure what French respect looks like. Possibly you may mean French curiosity.

[Sayonara]

They are very starey. You'd think the ones in the Charente would be used to me traipsing around by now, but nooooo.

[Pangloss]

I don't really know what your saying here. French respect looks like a beach? I used to spend 12 weeks in France every year, not just in Normandy, and I'm still not quite sure what French respect looks like. Possibly you may mean French curiosity.

 

(grin) No, I just meant that the French maintain a beautiful cemetary and memorials all over that region of France. You see the respect in every town you visit in that region, even after all these decades. They celebrate June 6th there every year, and honor the memories of American, British, Canadian and other international troops who fell in the defense of France. It's a beautiful thing. (Actually I was there a couple of decades ago, at a much younger age, so my memory on this is pretty dim, but I saw news reports recently that seemed to suggest that it's all still there, and still important to the French. I believe Chirac himself visited Normandy on the anniversary this year.)

[Douglas]

I'm not sure which history books you read but the British sustained substantial losses while trying to support the same French troops that were 'crushed'. Dunkirk saw the remnants of the British Army being driven back across the channel. There was nothing more the British could have done at the time' date=' and nothing more that DeGaulle expected from them or the French. DeGaulle fought in the same battles with the British before the defeat, and became a POW in Colditz with many English Officers that he fought beside.

 

After W.W. I, the French were far from thinking they were a 'great French Empire'. They were beleaguered, tired, demoralized and still suffering from the after effects of W.W. I, that had turned France into the closest thing to Hell any place in history has ever become.

 

It's all very easy to sit a thousand miles away and label the French cowards, but you have no conception of the horrors the country lived through in order to protect the freedom of the world. The worst the US suffered was Pearl Harbor and Midway, not a single foreign solder put one toe on American soil. Courage is easy when you are strong, try it when your army has been massacred, rebuilt and massacred again; all on the streets outside your home. Try it when you are the only country in the world still standing against Fascism and overwhelming odds.

 

The reason the French don't like the Americans is because despite what they lived through, and the sacrifice of almost all French males between 16 and 40 [i']twice[/i] in a century, the Americans still generally label them cowards.

 

They hate the British because we have fought wars against each other for over 800 years. That animosity is separate to the World Wars.

 

You can hate the French all you like, but to be frank, without the defence they put up you would be living in the Third Reich. That's the simple truth.

Ist of all, I don't see how most of your post relates to why the French dislike the Americans. 2nd, I know plenty about WWII as well as WWI.

De Gaulle was a POW in WWI, NOT WWII

Dunkirk has no bearing on my discussion.

Don't stuff words in my mouth that I never said, like..."cowards" & "hate"

Living in the 3rd Reich is a joke, we never got to France till '44, all that was left of the French army was the French resistance.

quote from you....."the Americans still generally label them cowards."". ...That's wrong. (IMO)

 

Quote from you......."The reason the French don't like the Americans is because despite what they lived through, and the sacrifice of almost all French males between 16 and 40 twice in a century, the Americans still generally label them cowards. "........Doesn't sound like a good reason to me.

 

Quote from you.........."The worst the US suffered was Pearl Harbor and Midway, "...........has nothing to do with the topic.....though I might add that the war in the Pacific was brutal.

 

Anyway, I gave my reasons for why I think the French dislike us, your reason was weak

[Douglas]

I think that might explain some background animosity, but I imagine that in general most French *don't* hate Americans. As I understand it, if there's anger it's more directed at American leadership and foreign policy.

I think "hate" is the wrong word (IMO)

On this day in 1943, British prime minister Churchill tells an audience that French general de Gaulle dislikes his allies because "England...has helped France. He cannot bear to think she needed help."

 

Amazing how the years may change, but the stupidity of the French still thrives. http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/827963/posts

Underlying Chirac's foreign policy is his desire to establish a group of nations that will counterbalance American power, with France at their head in a re-creation of de Gaulle's dream of giving his nation a major global role by positioning it between the great power blocs in the 1960s.

[Aardvark]

Atinymonkey, you have some interesting points but you really need to take more care with your facts.

 

De Gaulle did not become a POW in Colditz. He escaped to England.

 

WW1 was bad in France but to say the 'closest thing to hell any place in history has ever become' is just odd. I'd say any comparsion with Russias nightmare disproves that.

 

''not a single foreign solder put one toe on American soil.' Actually Japanese soldiers put lots of toes on American soil, the Aleutian islands of Alaska were attacked and the Americans sustained high causalties before dislodging the Japanese garrisons.

 

'Try it when you are the only country in the world still standing against Fascism and overwhelming odds.' Are you really refering to France? When did France ever stand alone?

 

'You can hate the French all you like, but to be frank, without the defence they put up you would be living in the Third Reich. That's the simple truth.'

 

No, the weakness of the defence put up by the French nearly meant Nazi victory. The actions of the Free French may have been honourable, but unfortunately were pretty insignificant in overall military terms. They had a chance to do more, but the French fleet choose to go over to the Nazis and on July 1 1940 the French air force actually bombed the British naval base of Gibraltar. Vichy French troops in Syria fought against the British and to a lesser extent fought against the US landings in Algeria.

 

The French response to the Nazi invasion was a poor defence followed by wide spread collaboration. Not a pleasant thing to acknowledge but the facts are important.

[atinymonkey]

Ist of all, I don't see how most of your post relates to why the French dislike the Americans.

It's fairly clear. I used English, in sentences, with no ellipses. Denial is not rebuttal.

 

2nd, I know plenty about WWII as well as WWI.

Gosh, I am bowled over with those credentials. Seriously, that isn't the way you prove either knowledge or ability, demonstration is the way.

 

De Gaulle was a POW in WWI, NOT WWII

Of course he was. He could hardly run Free France from Germany and not London. It was his contacts and relationships he built up during his time as a POW with English officers that pathed the way for the organisation of the Resistance.

 

Dunkirk has no bearing on my discussion.

You called De Galle bitter because "U.S. and Brits had to liberate his country after Hitler crushed them". Since Dunkirk showed both the French and British forces failing to repel the attack it is a relevant point to make. I'll go further to point out that the American help in the liberation of France was abject disaster after disaster, starting with the troops storming the wrong beach and failing to set up a supply route and being massacred. De Galle would not really see that screw up as the machinations of a indomitable military machine.

 

Don't stuff words in my mouth that I never said, like..."cowards" & "hate".

And I never said you did, but you did say "the great French empire was a piece of crap" and "talking about the French, has anyone googled "french military victories" then hit "I'm feeling lucky"??" also "anti french sentiment is confined to the French in France". If you don't want people to accuse you of labeling the French cowards, perhaps you ought to watch what you insinuate.

 

Living in the 3rd Reich is a joke, we never got to France till '44, all that was left of the French army was the French resistance.

The French army gave time for the withdrawal of British forces. Without that time, the British forces would have been lost. If the British forces had been lost, Britain would have fallen to Germany. If Britain had fallen to Germany, Russia would never have joined the Allies. With only one front to fight on, the Germans would have overrun Russia. America, in terms of comparitive size of forces, would have been easy defeated by the Axis (Italy, Spain, Germany, Poland and Japan). The situation really was that precarious.

 

The French sacrifice enabled the Allies to resist the Germans. Without it, we all would have lost.

 

quote from you....."the Americans still generally label them cowards."". ...That's wrong. (IMO)

Well, as you have said before, you do.

 

Quote from you......."The reason the French don't like the Americans is because despite what they lived through, and the sacrifice of almost all French males between 16 and 40 twice[/i'] in a century, the Americans still generally label them cowards. "........Doesn't sound like a good reason to me.

Well, not being French I would not expect you to agree with the reasoning. However, it's a valid sentiment. I don't think belittling the loss of so many men in any way justifies your opinion.

 

Quote from you.........."The worst the US suffered was Pearl Harbor and Midway, "...........has nothing to do with the topic.....though I might add that the war in the Pacific was brutal.

The war in the Pacific was as nothing compared with the Somme. The point, that you seem to have missed, is that you are deriding the French military because they got destroyed. As the American military would have been wiped out in the same situation, your reasoning is flawed.

 

Anyway, I gave my reasons for why I think the French dislike us, your reason was weak

No, you just didn't agree with it. But it's halted your French bashing, which was the point. You can continue being nationalistic about other subjects now.

[atinymonkey]

Atinymonkey' date=' you have some interesting points but you really need to take more care with your facts.

 

De Gaulle did not become a POW in Colditz. He escaped to England.[/quote']

In the first world war, he did indeed spend his time in Colditz. I should have structed my statment with full stops and not commas, but that's what I was saying.

 

As for the facts, I said I was making a point rather than making a statement. It was to quell French bashing rather than open historical debate

 

WW1 was bad in France but to say the 'closest thing to hell any place in history has ever become' is just odd. I'd say any comparsion with Russias nightmare disproves that.

Parts of Russia were hellish, yes. But the Somme is generally recognized as the worst place mans efforts have ever made in history. And it lasted for 7 years. At any one time 8 tonnes of steel was in the air, and for 2 months the average life expectancy was 3 days. Those are just statistics though, and do little to explain the horrific conditions.

 

What really made it hell, however, was the gas.

http://www.english.emory.edu/LostPoets/Dulce.html

 

"If any question why we died,

Tell them, because our fathers lied."

-Kipling

 

''not a single foreign solder put one toe on American soil.' Actually Japanese soldiers put lots of toes on American soil, the Aleutian islands of Alaska were attacked and the Americans sustained high causalties before dislodging the Japanese garrisons.

I did not know that. Interesting. But it's not really homeland America.

 

'Try it when you are the only country in the world still standing against Fascism and overwhelming odds.' Are you really refering to France?

No.

 

'You can hate the French all you like' date=' but to be frank, without the defence they put up you would be living in the Third Reich. That's the simple truth.'

 

No, the weakness of the defence put up by the French nearly meant Nazi victory......................Not a pleasant thing to acknowledge but the facts are important.[/quote']

Hmmm, it's probably a discussion in itself but I don't happen to agree. I certainly would not accept it as fact. Let just call it a difference of informed opinion.

[Aardvark]

It's a fair matter of disagreement, but as awful as the Somme was, i think it's clear that it would have been better to be French rather than Russian in either WW1 or WW2.

 

I don't understand what you mean by it lasting 7 years. WW1 was from 1914-1918 and the battle of the Somme was took place in 1916 and was fought by British and Commonwealth troops not French troops.

 

However we are in agreement that WW1 was a bloody nightmare. But in disagreement about the French record in WW2. I would be interested to know your reasons for thinking how the French helped defeat the 3rd Reich in WW2.

[Douglas]

Good try, well beyond strawmaning and smoke screening, disingenuous blather. not worth a reply.

Well, a couple.

 

No, you just didn't agree with it. But it's halted your French bashing, which was the point. You can continue being nationalistic about other subjects now.

Huh?

from you YESTERDAY.....Dunkirk saw the remnants of the British Army being driven back across the channel. There was nothing more the British could have done at the time, and nothing more that DeGaulle expected from them or the French. DeGaulle fought in the same battles with the British before the defeat, and became a POW in Colditz with many English Officers that he fought beside.

 

Quote from me yesterday........De Gaulle was a POW in WWI, NOT WWII

Quote from you today......Of course he was. He could hardly run Free France from Germany

Yikes

[atinymonkey]

I don't understand what you mean by it lasting 7 years. WW1 was from 1914-1918 and the battle of the Somme was took place in 1916 and was fought by British and Commonwealth troops not French troops.

Ha' date=' yes that's a fair point. The steel in the air/life expectancy/length of time quote is all mixed up. That's what comes from dredging up figures without thinking about what your typing. I'm doing system testing at work, and numbers begain swimming a week ago.

 

Good try, well beyond strawmaning and smoke screening, disingenuous blather. not worth a reply.

Well, a couple.

You don't know what those terms mean, much less when they are applicable. Don't use grown up language unless you understand context. If you can't provide counterpoints, don't sit and cry unfair, be a man about it.

 

If you accuse me of any of those things without grounds again, I'll request your posts are deleted.

 

Huh?

I'm referring to your pro Republican posts in every thread you post in within the forum. Give it a rest' date=' the simplistic rhetoric is very boring.

 

Yikes

What is that collection of random sentances you quoted supposed to mean? I assume they had a meaning when you layed them out in your head. If your brain is still stuck in the De Gaulle groove, allow me to point out my post to Aardvark: -

 

In the first world war, he did indeed spend his time in Colditz. I should have structed my statment with full stops and not commas, but that's what I was saying.

If your going to reply again, remember sentences are your friends. You are far from being eloquent enough to create a succinct reply in one post. Your just wasting my time, your time and time time of the other forum users.

[Ophiolite]

I would be interested to know your reasons for thinking how the French helped defeat the 3rd Reich in WW2.

In post62 atinymonkey says,

"The French army gave time for the withdrawal of British forces. Without that time, the British forces would have been lost. If the British forces had been lost, Britain would have fallen to Germany. If Britain had fallen to Germany, Russia would never have joined the Allies. With only one front to fight on, the Germans would have overrun Russia. America, in terms of comparitive size of forces, would have been easy defeated by the Axis (Italy, Spain, Germany, Poland and Japan). "

It's the basic "For want of a nail" argument and suffers the potential weakness that at each step in the progression other possibilities intrude and the presumed outcome becomes less likely. But it is a plausible sequence.

[atinymonkey]

Yup, it's a complete house of cards. Still the concept is taught in schools, I suspect to give people something tenuous to get there teeth into later. Most of the study of History is based on transient facts and flexible definitions, it's the most eloquent opinion that carries over.

[Mad Mardigan]

It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government. — Thomas Paine

[Mad Mardigan]

Since I dont like guns or anything of that nature, I had to go get this today...

 

 

HEHEHE, thought my Glock 21 needed a buddy.

[john5746]

 

This is my baby! Bush won't mess with me now!

[Mad Mardigan]

 

This is my baby! Bush won't mess with me now!

 

Iraqi surplus?