Where Does Space End? It Must End Somewhere!

[rueberry]

the fact of the matter is, when considering the size of the universe, we cannot under our current theories. i believe that, until we formulate a theory to replace the big bang theory, we will only be chasing our tails. i do not believe that light speed is the limit. it is, however, our current understanding. our past understanding of what we once understood as knowledge gives credence to this assumption. i am entertaining the idea that space, as we percieve it, is more than just space. meaning, perhaps what we are a part of is so alien to our understanding that we could not and would not accept the idea even if told outright.

[timetes]

can a vacuum be infinite? Well, my comment would be if numbers go on for ever so can space. But I do wonder about space and its black holes...maybe the universe feeds itself going thru these black holes and coming out on the other end....like a vacuum. But the information that space or the universe is spreading out also makes you think maybe there is edges and nothing after that....infinite.

 

Its funny i came on this site because I cant sleep because I keep getting electric shocks and keyed into google science forum and i got here

[npts2020]

can a vacuum be infinite? Well, my comment would be if numbers go on for ever so can space. But I do wonder about space and its black holes...maybe the universe feeds itself going thru these black holes and coming out on the other end....like a vacuum. But the information that space or the universe is spreading out also makes you think maybe there is edges and nothing after that....infinite.

 

Its funny i came on this site because I cant sleep because I keep getting electric shocks and keyed into google science forum and i got here

 

It is important to remember that numbers are an artificial human construct based on the appearance of the universe to us, whereas the universe stubbornly resists fitting precisely into our constructs.

[north]

Ever since I was a young boy, I have wrestled with trying to understand space. In particular, I have never really understood how space is supposed to never end. I really don't see how that's possible. Everything ends somewhere. Where one thing ends the next begins.

 

Can people please provide thoughts on this?

 

Edisonian

 

I look at space this way ;

 

both space and matter are inter-connected

 

matter needs space in order for it to manifest and space needs matter in order for it to become and/or expand

 

each and every atom of matter needs a certain amount of space

 

matter and space are infinite and always will be because the opposite , nothing has no possibility to become anything of substance

[Sedit]

Call me crazy but i have always had the notion that the universe is a black hole...Sounds strange but what it would mean is that there is enough mass in a small enough area to bend space in on it self ..That means that space can never end because when you look forward you are seeing the space that is behind you in a sence.

 

Kind of like if you went all the way around the earth you will end up at the same spot you started making the earth appear infinitly large to someone that didnt know any better.

[north]

Call me crazy but i have always had the notion that the universe is a black hole...Sounds strange but what it would mean is that there is enough mass in a small enough area to bend space in on it self ..That means that space can never end because when you look forward you are seeing the space that is behind you in a sence.

 

Kind of like if you went all the way around the earth you will end up at the same spot you started making the earth appear infinitly large to someone that didnt know any better.

 

okay

 

but you infer that space has some sort of substance associated with it

 

what is that substance ? define it ?

 

for me you don't " bend space " in and of its self

 

but you bend the matter in that space

[snp.gupta]

Call me crazy but i have always had the notion that the universe is a black hole...Sounds strange but what it would mean is that there is enough mass in a small enough area to bend space in on it self ..That means that space can never end because when you look forward you are seeing the space that is behind you in a sence.

 

Kind of like if you went all the way around the earth you will end up at the same spot you started making the earth appear infinitly large to someone that didnt know any better.

 

:-)Why don’t we think in terms of Normal Physics? Is it not too much imagination?

 

I feel we can explain every thing with Normal every day EXPERIMENTAL Physics…

 

Why should we get into math singularity and go nowhere from there???

[north]

:-)Why don’t we think in terms of Normal Physics? Is it not too much imagination?

 

I feel we can explain every thing with Normal every day EXPERIMENTAL Physics…

 

Why should we get into math singularity and go nowhere from there???

 

because thats where physics is at

 

mathematical physics seems to think " space can bend " it can't

 

it just " seems " that way

[snp.gupta]

Call me crazy but i have always had the notion that the universe is a black hole...Sounds strange but what it would mean is that there is enough mass in a small enough area to bend space in on it self ..That means that space can never end because when you look forward you are seeing the space that is behind you in a sence.

 

Kind of like if you went all the way around the earth you will end up at the same spot you started making the earth appear infinitly large to someone that didnt know any better.

 

:-)Why don’t we think in terms of Normal Physics? Is it not too much imagination?

 

I feel we can explain every thing with Normal every day EXPERIMENTAL Physics…

 

Why should we get into math singularity and go nowhere from there???

 

because thats where physics is at

 

mathematical physics seems to think " space can bend " it can't

 

it just " seems " that way

 

:-)You are correct sir,

Light Rays near huge masses bend. It does not imply space itself is bent ????

[BlackPower]

the fact of the matter is, when considering the size of the universe, we cannot under our current theories. i believe that, until we formulate a theory to replace the big bang theory, we will only be chasing our tails. i do not believe that light speed is the limit. it is, however, our current understanding. our past understanding of what we once understood as knowledge gives credence to this assumption. i am entertaining the idea that space, as we percieve it, is more than just space. meaning, perhaps what we are a part of is so alien to our understanding that we could not and would not accept the idea even if told outright.

 

This is might be the truest thing I've read on this thread. I have always felt that it is dead impossible to understand what is going on outside of something if you are stuck inside of this something.

 

Im just a weedhead from jersey with an interest in this sorta thing.

 

In places where there is no matter (a true void i guess) would time exist?

Would it even need to exist since absolutley nothing is going on (movement)?

And, without matter would space exist?

 

I sorta got my own theory on this but i cannot put it into words.

[snp.gupta]

....

In places where there is no matter (a true void i guess) would time exist?

Would it even need to exist since absolutley nothing is going on (movement)?

And, without matter would space exist?

 

I sorta got my own theory on this but i cannot put it into words.

 

In that condition, why time is required?

 

:confused:Do you exist there?

 

Where on this universe such place exists?

 

Weird imagination……!!!!…..

[north]

:-)You are correct sir,

Light Rays near huge masses bend. It does not imply space itself is bent ????

 

think rotation by that huge object and the mass or matter that is within that space

 

and the consequences

[iNow]

think rotation by that huge object and the mass or matter that is within that space

 

and the consequences

 

And this is supposed to be helpful to a person asking a question, how exactly?

[north]

And this is supposed to be helpful to a person asking a question, how exactly?

 

because since space has NO substance related to it the only Reasonable conclusion is that there must be matter , coupled with rotation , in that space which bends the light

[Severian]

There is something odd going on in this thread. Page 9 (in my setup the last page) always redirects me to page 8. So this post is an experiment to see what happens.

 

Edit: Hmm - interesting - I am at the bottom of my page 8, even although there is apparently a page 9. Looks like we have found a space-time anomaly.

[iNow]

There is something odd going on in this thread. Page 9 (in my setup the last page) always redirects me to page 8. So this post is an experiment to see what happens.

 

Edit: Hmm - interesting - I am at the bottom of my page 8, even although there is apparently a page 9. Looks like we have found a space-time anomaly.

 

It's the iNow Phantom Pagination Syndrome:

http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=33394

[BlackPower]

In that condition, why time is required?

 

:confused:Do you exist there?

 

Where on this universe such place exists?

 

Weird imagination……!!!!…..

 

 

 

yeah i guessed i sort of worded that strangley. haha. I should have thrown in there " suppose there are places with no matter" instead of "in places with no matter". What exactly would the universe be defined as? All of the matter and the space it occupies? If space dosent end and does go on forever (lets say without overlapping on itself) wouldn't most of space be regions where the matter and energy from the big bang has not yet reached? (like i said im just a weedhead from jersey, sorry if its hard to grasp what im saying) Would there be space in these regions or would space just be instantly made when it comes into contact with matter? Weird imagination? True indeed. I'm just trying to think outside of the box that i am trapped inside, like everyone else.

[snp.gupta]

...

What exactly would the universe be defined as? All of the matter and the space it occupies? If space dosent end and does go on forever (lets say without overlapping on itself) wouldn't most of space be regions where the matter and energy from the big bang has not yet reached? (like i said im just a weedhead from jersey, sorry if its hard to grasp what im saying) ....

 

 

:-)What will happen if space exists there also???

 

think rotation by that huge object and the mass or matter that is within that space

 

and the consequences

 

:-)Then space bends is it ???

Why? The path of mass or matter will bend, why space it self?

Then space converts to time there.

How to prove it Experimentally???

[BlackPower]

hahah. why do you guys keep answering my questions with questions?

[north]

Originally Posted by BlackPower

...

What exactly would the universe be defined as? All of the matter and the space it occupies? If space dosent end and does go on forever (lets say without overlapping on itself) wouldn't most of space be regions where the matter and energy from the big bang has not yet reached? (like i said im just a weedhead from jersey, sorry if its hard to grasp what im saying) ....

 

:-)What will happen if space exists there also???

 

the Universe is defined as a place of space , energy and matter reside

 

which of course is true

 

to answer the question of whether within the Universe there are regions of which BB ( big-bang ) has not reached , there is none

 

why so ?

 

because it is the energy and therefore matter that has created any region of space

 

any space that is present is based on energy-matter and any energy-matter is based on space

 

both space and energy-matter go hand and hand

 

Originally Posted by north

think rotation by that huge object and the mass or matter that is within that space

 

and the consequences

 

 

Then space bends is it ???

 

NO

 

the matter IN that space bends persay because it is in a fluid form

 

 

Why?

 

because the connection between two rotating bodies and the energy both are giving off

 

for instance we forget at times that the sun for instance is a three dimensional object

 

meaning that the energy it is throwing off is in ALL directions

 

therefore that when any energy from a star interacts with energy from another star there are consequences

 

hence bending of light from a star who's light comes close to the atmosphere of the sun , consequence > optics

 

 

 

 

 

The path of mass or matter will bend, why space it self?

 

as I said

 

it is energy-matter that bends NOT space in-and-of -itself

 

 

Then space converts to time there.

 

no such convertion takes place at all

 

 

How to prove it Experimentally???

 

impossible

 

further

 

I propose that for any atom say Hydrogen , to act as hydrogen does , and does so properly needs space that extends beyond the electron , perhaps ^2 or even 3^

Edited December 19, 2008 by north
multiple post merged

[snp.gupta]

 

'How to prove it Experimentally???'

.... impossible.....

 

 

You are exactly correct sir, thank you for such a nice explanatory post…

 

But you said in your earlier post as given below

 

think rotation by that huge object and the mass or matter that is within that space

 

and the consequences

 

I am still confusing…

 

You mean by Rotation space gets bent, is it????

[Royston]

Can somebody please put me out of my misery, and lock this thread. The OP has been addressed several times, the other 90% is just drivel.

[Tom Vose]

No it hasn't been answered, because i haven't answered it. I plan to work as an astrophysicist, so i have some very useful things to say. Which i will in a minute.

 

There is no edge to the universe, according to a relative point of view.

 

Ancient Roman philosopher Lucretius pointed out over 2000 years ago, that there was a paradox concerning the boundary, or edge of the universe. He states, that for there to be an edge, it would mean that the universe had something beyond it to show it was the edge. However, Albert Einstein, one of the greatest physicists that had ever lived, showed that everything that 'counts' must be contained within the expansion of space and time - thus - the edge of the universe is the boundary between nothing and everything; and it also suggests that nothing quite literally is 'nothing,' so there is no edge, and no true boundary between two things.

 

If universe is also expanding now at an infinite rate, the ability to go find some kind of boundary is now reverted impossible, because you would have to travel an infinite amount of distance, which seems to be impossible according to laws of relativity.

 

Our universe floats about in a conceptually-impossible void of nothing, impossible in the sense you cannot describe it in any sense which is like having no apples, to some. This nothingness is by definition, something that should not be considered at all. You can say, that if you where a tachyon travelling a little faster than the superluminal speed the universe is now receeding the distant galaxies, you will eventually reach a part of spacetime which is so heavily curved, you will come back on yourself. You will always remain in spacetime, because there is nothing according to physics which exists, other than everything contained within spacetime.

 

Therefore, clearly said, there is no edge to the universe.

[mooeypoo]

No it hasn't been answered, because i haven't answered it. I plan to work as an astrophysicist,

yay, me too! we need more scientists.

so i have some very useful things to say. Which i will in a minute.

You can have useful things to say regardless of your degree or aspirations, so that was a bit unnecessary - we will listen whether you are a PhD or a highschool student.

 

But we will also require the same level of substantiation and proof from everyone. Your statements are interesting and the stories are intriguing, but you have to help us out here and put references.

 

Otherwise, they're not quite useful, no matter what your background is.

 

~moo

[Tom Vose]

Hello Mooey, if you point out the parts you want references to, i will [math]try[/math] to find some, but i cannot promise anything.

 

Good luck on your studies however.