Where Does Space End? It Must End Somewhere!

[Patrick Henry]

Space ends where matter ends.

[scrappy]

Space ends where matter ends.

I don't think so. I'd be more inclined to say that space begins where matter ends, since space is a matter-less vacuum.

[wade.daniel.w]

I've thought the same thing, think of this however, relative to an atom, the atmosphere around it is vast and seemingly endless. Imagine the world as an electron, orbiting a nucleus, the possibilities of what lies beyond space are endless especially when realizing that at a subatomic level the laws of physics change, making it entirely possible to believe in the possibility that in an environment where we are a subatomic element the laws of physics may be entirely different, even time flow itself may be at a different rate. But even in this instance I cannot imagine what would exist beyond that, and furthermore. It would seem the actually existence of an infinity is very difficult to except. I think the best way to even look into this is to first determine, what is space? Does it have an ecology etc... I hope someone finds these answers during my lifetime.

[A Childs Mind]

Aparintly i mean the univers has shown proof that is is beiginging to shrink

 

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=66781

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Consecutive posts merged

Space ends where matter ends.

 

space relly isint matter. it just a pocket of particles floting around... think of space as a human. and all the srats and plantets ar just cells. it dose eventualy come to a edge were nothing can traval past. thats just my theory of course

[wade.daniel.w]

"space relly isint matter. it just a pocket of particles floting around... think of space as a human. and all the srats and plantets ar just cells. it dose eventualy come to a edge were nothing can traval past. thats just my theory of course"

 

- or even the building blocks of that cell. also, just a theory.

[Brain Boy]

I have a theory, if space really is endless then how did the big bang happen because space is empty and has no matter in it and no atoms which is the fabric of space and time then how is it possible for matter to be created because there is no time, no atoms and most importantly life so anybody know the answer to how the big bang happened cause I got nothing but I don't think space is endless because no mind can handle that there is an endless thing cause it just can't be endless it's just too mind muddling I mean theres got to be something else past space I mean it's like trying to tell the time when there isn't any time at all. |

 

 

 

PS: sorry for the long sentence.

[insane_alien]

try retyping that but coherently.

[Airbrush]

Aparintly i mean the univers has shown proof that is is beiginging to shrink

 

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=66781

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The poster to that physics forum doesn't sound like he knows what he is talking about. Be careful where you get your ideas. The experts are in agreement that the universe is expanding and accelerating in expansion.

[AlexTehManiac]

The answer is simple, it doesn't end. Everyone has their theories but no one theory is correct. Technically, space is measured in lightyears, or atleast space-travel speed measurements, correct? which means they have different rules (to use the term blatantly), so there must be different measurements, in space, I believe it is infinite, but no one has ever reached a defined ending of space, people are still discovering new stars, planets, etc.. Maybe one day we will find out the answer, maybe not, who knows.

[jackson33]

Think this is an old thread, a couple posters long banned or haven't been heard of in awhile, but;

 

Airbrush; The poster from the Physics Forums, ended his comments, indicating a hypothesis or possibility. I got the impression he felt it possible the U was collapsing into a black hole or central point, the closer to the black hole or that center point, by distance (time) objects would appear (center point of observation) to be moving faster by distance, while in fact moving slower toward that center point, than those nearer. The reverse of accepted theory TODAY and I don't agree with his idea.

 

Brain Boy; However you believe the U began to expand or from what it expanded from, most theory suggest that space itself was and is being created (for the Universe) by this expansion. That is the "fabric of space" or the distribution of atoms (remaining the same in total) spread into a comparatively empty nothing. Today that distribution is about 1 Atom per square meter of space, according to theory, many more atoms per before and will be much less as time goes by. Keep in mind, what's seen 13-14 or 14.3 BLY away is not what exist today in those points in space, but that our measurement of matter distribution is in real time and should be through out what ever the limits of the U may be, some suggesting today 250 Billion Light Years in diameter, compared to our said 'known U' 26-28 BLY diameter.

 

For the record, your post is, however written, probably reflects the most common question in Astronomy and I had no problem in understanding. How could this or that be if this or that is true??? Keep on asking questions, google the subjects that interest you and don't become discouraged until you reach a conclusion that makes sense to yourself.

[nrocha20]

Hm? Old thread you say? hmmm..... eh. I'll post anyway.

 

A solar system has a center, as all do, the center of a solar system is a star. The high mass and gravity of the sun, keeps the planets swirling around it. But, if we go beyond the solar system, we reach the galaxy. Which contains thousands, if not millions of stars, if not BILLIONS of stars and solar systems. The galaxy is held together by, what is assumed a black hole. The high mass and gravity of the black hole keeps all the stars and solar systems together. But, when we go beyond the galaxy, we reach the universe. The universe contains Trillions of galaxies, but... thats as far as we go. Truethfully, I think the universe is just another expansion in the great "Final Frontier". I think, that very far off, there is a large object or clump of mass and gravity, that keep all the galaxies together. And if we go beyond the universe, we will find another expansion of space, that contains tons more universes.

 

So I believe that the universe has an end, its just very far off, and we haven't been able to see far enough to catch a glimps of an end, or the great center of the universe. Sorry, I'm only fourteen, this is the best I can shove out.

[Mr Skeptic]

I think, that very far off, there is a large object or clump of mass and gravity, that keep all the galaxies together.

 

Good guess, a bunch of galaxies is called a cluster.

[Airbrush]

... if we go beyond the solar system, we reach the galaxy. Which contains thousands, if not millions of stars, if not BILLIONS of stars and solar systems. The galaxy is held together by, what is assumed a black hole. The high mass and gravity of the black hole keeps all the stars and solar systems together.

 

Our galaxy contains hundreds of Billions of stars plus unimaginable large mass of gas and dust, and above all dark matter. The galaxy is not held together by a black hole at the center. The mutual gravity of all the stars, dust, gas, and dark matter hold the galaxy together. The black hole at the center of any galaxy is a tiny mass compared to the galaxy. The Milky Way's supermassive black hole is a few million solar masses which is miniscule compared to the much greater mass of the entire galaxy of Billions of stars, gas, dust, and dark matter.

[nrocha20]

Our galaxy contains hundreds of Billions of stars plus unimaginable large mass of gas and dust, and above all dark matter.

 

So you think something that we can't see or know about in anyway, holds our galaxy together?

[One of the Few]

BEHOLD MY ENDLESS WISDOM! We'll find out what is what when we find out, whilst there is always a thirst for knowledge one has to stop and think, If we know everything, aren't we going to leave the next generation a little high and dry? As for the whole technical part, there is "technically" an edge but if you trust einstein, you'll never reach it.

[Airbrush]

So you think something that we can't see or know about in anyway, holds our galaxy together?

 

Yes, for lack of a better term, something is causing the outer edges of spiral galaxies to rotate as fast as the central region. That something appears to be several times as massive as all known "normal" (baryonic) matter. And we cannot see it except for gravitational lensing.

[elas]

Yes, for lack of a better term, something is causing the outer edges of spiral galaxies to rotate as fast as the central region. That something appears to be several times as massive as all known "normal" (baryonic) matter. And we cannot see it except for gravitational lensing.

 

A long time ago when this point was raised on a different forum, I was told that the problem related to spiral galaxy rotation (mass, gravity and speed of rotation) had been solved; you are implying that the problem still exists. Can someone please give a definitive answer to the question - does the problem still exist?

[Spyman]

A long time ago when this point was raised on a different forum, I was told that the problem related to spiral galaxy rotation (mass, gravity and speed of rotation) had been solved; you are implying that the problem still exists. Can someone please give a definitive answer to the question - does the problem still exist?

Dark matter is postulated to partially account for evidence of "missing mass" in the universe, including the rotational speeds of galaxies, orbital velocities of galaxies in clusters, gravitational lensing of background objects by galaxy clusters such as the Bullet Cluster, and the temperature distribution of hot gas in galaxies and clusters of galaxies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter

 

Stars revolve around the center of galaxies at a constant speed over a large range of distances from the center of the galaxy. Thus they revolve much faster than would be expected if they were in a free Newtonian potential. The galaxy rotation problem is this discrepancy between the observed rotation speeds of matter in the disk portions of spiral galaxies and the predictions of Newtonian dynamics considering the visible mass. This discrepancy is currently thought to betray the presence of dark matter that permeates the galaxy and extends into the galaxy's halo. An alternative explanation is a modification of the laws of gravity, MOND.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy_rotation_problem

[Banshii]

It's easy to believe everything has to end because everything we know of has an end. That doesn't necessarily mean everything HAS to have an end.

 

Saying space itself has and end is the same thing as saying all space as we know it is contained inside of something much larger. Which means once we get there we'd "hit" something. I personally don't believe this.

 

Space is literally 'nothing'. What makes it something is the stuff moving around inside of it (us, gasses, planets, etc.).

 

The end of space to me means to the edge of where no gasses, planets and etc. exist. Simply because these things just haven't gotten there yet. There doesn't have to be a physical edge to space. To say that means that there is something else on the other side (or nothing; just more "space").

 

Why can't "nothing" go on forever? If you think about it, "nothing" DOES go on forever. There's just simply nothing there, total void. Which is what everything as we know it is expanding into.

 

I do believe, however, that matter can only be so far apart from each other before it's either ripped apart, or pulls itself back together. But that has nothing to do with having an edge around "nothing". If there is nothing there, how can there be an edge?

 

This is also why we can't see anything from or in the edge of space, simply because nothing is there. Just more nothing to 'float' into or expand into.

 

A lot of people can't seem to grasp the idea of what 'nothing' means. Which is hard to do I guess. But nothing literally means nothing, the total absence of everything and anything. Which is what earth is 'floating' though now.

 

A vacuum on earth has to have edges to keep earths atmosphere from leaking in, thus it not being a vacuum anymore. In space, there doesn't need to be an edge simply because there is nothing out there to leak in. So why does space have to have an edge somewhere? There's just nothing.

[nrocha20]

Yes, for lack of a better term, something is causing the outer edges of spiral galaxies to rotate as fast as the central region. That something appears to be several times as massive as all known "normal" (baryonic) matter. And we cannot see it except for gravitational lensing.

 

I'm sorry, I'm having a real hard time believing that something thats impossible to see or know about exists. It sort of reminds me of God, or Santa Claus.

[Airbrush]

I'm sorry, I'm having a real hard time believing that something thats impossible to see or know about exists. It sort of reminds me of God, or Santa Claus.

 

You cannot watch electrons running along a wire, but we can witness the effects, electricity. Lot of things we cannot see that exist. We can see dark matter indirectly thru gravitational lensing.

[mooeypoo]

You cannot watch electrons running along a wire, but we can witness the effects, electricity. Lot of things we cannot see that exist. We can see dark matter indirectly thru gravitational lensing.

That might be, but those things are falsifiable and testable. For a phenomenon to be considered scientific, it must be both falsifiable and testable.

 

If a phenomenon is claimed to exist but there's no way to test for it and it is explained by a set of loosely fitting explanations (that render it effectively unfalsifiable) it is not scientific.

 

Where' the falsifiability of the claim, for one?

[Justonium]

The edge of space is not a tangible place. No matter how fast you travel, you can never get there. The edge of space is basically at the end of where anything can possible go. With every passing second, matter and energy in the universe have the time to travel farther, so space expands accordingly at the speed of light. Space is where stuff exists. You can basically think of the expansion of space as the expansion of where the stuff created in the big bang has a possibility of existing at any moment.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Justonium
gramatical error lol

[Spyman]

That might be, but those things are falsifiable and testable. For a phenomenon to be considered scientific, it must be both falsifiable and testable.

 

If a phenomenon is claimed to exist but there's no way to test for it and it is explained by a set of loosely fitting explanations (that render it effectively unfalsifiable) it is not scientific.

 

Where' the falsifiability of the claim, for one?

Even if Dark Matter turns out to be wrong, the phenomens it tries to explain is observed and not something comparable to Santa Claus.

 

According to Wikipedia, Dark matter is not only accepted as an scientific theory, but also the best supported explanation we have right now.

 

"As important as dark matter is believed to be in the universe, direct evidence of its existence and a concrete understanding of its nature have remained elusive. Though the theory of dark matter remains the most widely accepted theory to explain the anomalies in observed galactic rotation, some alternative theories such as modified Newtonian dynamics and tensor-vector-scalar gravity have been proposed. None of these alternatives, however, have garnered equally widespread support in the scientific community."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter

Edited October 7, 2009 by Spyman
Spelling

[Darth Bane]

I agree with spyman as long as dark energy push's the universe apart their will be no end to it until dark energy weakens and dark matter takes offer then it all will come back together.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Darth Bane