Edisonian Posted October 6, 2004 Posted October 6, 2004 Ever since I was a young boy, I have wrestled with trying to understand space. In particular, I have never really understood how space is supposed to never end. I really don't see how that's possible. Everything ends somewhere. Where one thing ends the next begins. Can people please provide thoughts on this? 1
ydoaPs Posted October 6, 2004 Posted October 6, 2004 how can space end? say the universe were a room. what is beyond the walls? 2
Stevo Posted October 6, 2004 Posted October 6, 2004 Not everything ends. Matter can always be divided into smaller portions. You can always make a more precise measurment. My girlfriend will never ever stop nagging me. Not everything has to end. Technically speaking it can't end can it? 1
ydoaPs Posted October 6, 2004 Posted October 6, 2004 Not everything ends. Matter can always be divided into smaller portions. You can always make a more precise measurment. My girlfriend will never ever stop nagging me. Not everything has to end. Technically speaking it can't end can it? matter cannot always be divided into smaller protions. do the words "elementary particles" mean anything to you? -1
Stevo Posted October 6, 2004 Posted October 6, 2004 There is no way to make an infinitely small piece of matter. You could still make it smaller.
Sayonara Posted October 6, 2004 Posted October 6, 2004 how can space end? say the universe were a room. what is beyond the walls? Another room, or maybe a passageway. Possibly a small garden with a rockery and water features.
5614 Posted October 6, 2004 Posted October 6, 2004 not that i can prove this, but a theory which i like is this: space is infinite, however we say that space has edges, these edges are the furthest bit of matter in a certain direction. beyond that is matterless space - a true vacum. so when a comet or something goes past the 'edge' of space, it creates a new edge. (i dont know how matterless waves and particles e.g. EM radiation and photons/phonons fit into this though)
Stevo Posted October 7, 2004 Posted October 7, 2004 not that i can prove this' date=' but a theory which i like is this: space is infinite, however we say that space has edges, these edges are the furthest bit of matter in a certain direction. beyond that is matterless space - a true vacum. so when a comet or something goes past the 'edge' of space, it creates a new edge. [i'](i dont know how matterless waves and particles e.g. EM radiation and photons/phonons fit into this though)[/i] This may sound stupid, but mathmatically speaking wouldn't it be an infinitely impossibility for there to be a finite amount of matter in a universe that goes on forever. There would eventually (in theory) have to be something else. Those edges would just be our universes edges, right?
Guest Sporogenic Posted October 7, 2004 Posted October 7, 2004 I have a hypothesis that our universe is comprised of circles and straight lines. Circles, being matter, are infinite within themselves. Straight lines would be energy/light. Being finite, a line cannot go on forever, it ultimately has to run into a boundry. The interactions of matter and energy create something we can perceive as the passing of time. Using the boundries of the circles, energy(light) reflects off of the boundries so that it is not lost or spent, i.e. the law of conservation of energy. I would say that the universe has boundries, but is infinite within itself. Outside the universe would simply be The Void, nothing, a true vaccuum.
philbo1965uk Posted October 7, 2004 Posted October 7, 2004 hi guys this is my favourite topic,my own beliefs are this.....im sure im on the right path...the universe was created....they was no big bang....how can something explode into nothingness...are you with me...no space no soundwaves,no oxygen to burn....are you still understanding this...ok if you are when all matter ceases to take up space at its fringe....(without matter time cannot exist)then what is left over is a void...now dont think the void is just one continuous white light...its not its blacknesslike death end of chat.. ..everything is circular in our universe...our universe is like the inside of a balloon...the void is the skin but unlike the balloon skin it has no thickness....because there is no matter their to calculate yes....therefore it solves the paradox of whats outside the box...now who created this universe well thats easy God.... now whats really gonna freak you is matrixy "there is no universe.".....
Stevo Posted October 8, 2004 Posted October 8, 2004 hi guys this is my favourite topic' date='my own beliefs are this.....im sure im on the right path...the universe was created....they was no big bang....how can something explode into nothingness...are you with me...no space no soundwaves,no oxygen to burn....are you still understanding this...ok if you are when all matter ceases to take up space at its fringe....(without matter time cannot exist)then what is left over is a void...now dont think the void is just one continuous white light...its not its blacknesslike death end of chat....everything is circular in our universe...our universe is like the inside of a balloon...the void is the skin but unlike the balloon skin it has no thickness....because there is no matter their to calculate yes....therefore it solves the paradox of whats outside the box...now who created this universe well thats easy God.... now whats really gonna freak you is matrixy "there is no universe.".....[/quote'] Firstly, work on grammer. It hard was follow. Second, the God thing, there are plenty of threads here where you can try to prove that he made everything in the universe but for all intensive purposes, you have no proof of this. If you don't believe me ask that guy sayonara, he'll tell you all about it. But if our universe is like a baloon, outside that balloon of what we know, our universe, how could there be an infinite void? There has to be something there eventually. That is an awefully conceited veiw. Our universe is the only area that is that has anything in it. Mathmatically speaking the area of our universe is a speck in the infinite expanse of space. The same way you and i are specks in the universe. You want to tell me that in pin-prick in space is where all the mass is. All the energy is. All the everything is. Not possible...
algore Posted October 8, 2004 Posted October 8, 2004 Edisonian: "I have never really understood how space is supposed to never end." There are a lot of ways to approach this question; here's one which is compatible with both modern physics and common sense. First, suppose the universe has some definite age, say 15 billion years. (I'm not claiming that's the case, but it's plausible). Then the farthest we can possibly see is 15 billion light years. Hubble telescope is actually theoretically capable of seeing a very bright light source even farther out, for instance 30 billion LYs. Unfortunately there hasn't been enough time for that light to reach us; it will only have travelled half the necessary distance (ignoring, if you don't mind, universe expansion). So there could very well be something out that far, but we'll have to wait 15 billion years to see it. Personally I imagine space, complete with galaxies, goes even farther: 100 billion LY, a trillion LY, who knows? Perhaps after 100 billion LY (in some direction) our normal space stops and heaven begins, with God presiding over a choir of angels playing harps; or perhaps it's just a vacuum; or perhaps we're contained in something like a fish-bowl on a coffee table in the living room of incredibly huge lizard-like aliens; or perhaps space folds back on itself via some 4th dimension - there is absolutely no way of knowing, if you accept the speed of light and the age of the universe as limiting the scope of our knowledge to 15 billion LYs. Now, if the question of what exists 100 billion LY out is unknowable and essentially meaningless, from the current scientific point of view, then the question whether it goes on to infinity is even more so. ... Does that help?
ydoaPs Posted October 8, 2004 Posted October 8, 2004 Being finite, a line cannot go on forever, it ultimately has to run into a boundry. lines are NOT finite. they go on forever in both directions of its one dimension.
Guest professorCM Posted October 8, 2004 Posted October 8, 2004 mater can be transformed into energy remember the big bang what if the big bang is the transformation of energy to mater and if so then what if there is many big bangs and one bang happens then contracts and creats a space size nuculer fushen and creates more energy then before and then there are two big bangs then those contract to energy and then there is 4 big bangs and so on and in that perspect an infinate universe is possible.
Sorcerer Posted October 8, 2004 Posted October 8, 2004 Try using sentences. Also try using IF/THEN premises, perhaps then you could have a coherent, however highly speculative idea.
ydoaPs Posted October 9, 2004 Posted October 9, 2004 not that i can prove this' date=' but a theory which i like is this: space is infinite, however we say that space has edges, these edges are the furthest bit of matter in a certain direction. beyond that is matterless space - a true vacum. so when a comet or something goes past the 'edge' of space, it creates a new edge. [i'](i dont know how matterless waves and particles e.g. EM radiation and photons/phonons fit into this though)[/i] it doesn't quite work. say we have a region of space 1m^3 about 100m from the "edge" of the universe. due to the uncertainty principle, we could not say there is NO matter in said region of space. there would be vertual particles and such.
Sorcerer Posted October 9, 2004 Posted October 9, 2004 Actually the probability of a particle being in any one place is proportionate to its last measured location, this means that there still is an infintesimal chance of a particle being an infinite distance away, meaning the universe would be infinite. However this needs to somehow be resolved with relativity, since things cannot travel faster than the speed of light we can draw a radius of probability which expands at the speed of light as time progresses. Thus, unless space itself has expanded faster than the speed of light (which it has, so it kinda throws this out the window), all matter/energy in the universe has a radius of probability of ~14 billion light years. Everything ends somewhere. Where one thing ends the next begins. The universe is everything. If the universe ended and something else began then the original thing you called the universe wouldn't truly be the universe.
Mad Mardigan Posted October 9, 2004 Posted October 9, 2004 I think space is kinda like on Scooby Doo when they are being chased by the creepy guy they met in the beginning that is actually the bad dude they are after that is trying to run everyone off so he can take the hidden gold money for himself, but during the chase the run thru a door, and come out thru the door acroos the hall, just to run back thru the same door again. Think of it as a continues loop, or if you are standing in front of door looking in a dark room, with the exact same door behind you. You then throw a ball into the door in front of you, and it hits you in back of the head. Either that, or I am in a drug induced Dr. Seuss nightmare.
philbo1965uk Posted October 9, 2004 Posted October 9, 2004 Nice ideas but your losing focus,the common sense approach should always aid the limits of our brain power.Not everyone is grasping just what a void means? The universe cannot be infinite(the law of conservation of energy)to expand further than its maximum it would require an energy source,Seeing how it is accepted that some form of bigbang started the expansion,when all the energy is converted the end yes(like your car using its petrol tank up). Now what is outside the universe is the void,which is empty of all matter,nothing exists there,no time to measure its thickness because no matter is present nor ever will be...it does not exist(most of you can grasp the briefest feeling of not existing,when you have undergone general anesthetic,5.4.3.2.1 you slip into blackness,when you wake you cannot remember how long you,ve been out,no thoughts while you,ve been under,all you can remember is the flick into blackness...you only remember this feeling because your awake now,if you never woke you,d be dead cease to exist yes...) I realise to comprehend nothingness is difficult,our brains are simply are not built to accept it.So i will offer a poor model i know, to show you. Take two balloons,one red the other blue.The blue one represents the void,the red one our universe(the matter will be our breath).Now with both balloons deflated place the red balloon inside the blue one and blow it up.you will notice that our universe the red balloon expand,and by now realise that no amount of breath(matter)will ever expand into the void(our blue balloon)...please dont retort the blue balloon being stretched to accomadate our red universe,remember the void has no thickness or existance no matter occupies it. I do realise its a poor model but it offers an easily understood explanation.
Mad Mardigan Posted October 9, 2004 Posted October 9, 2004 But you are using a material with a finite amount of space. If there is an end to the universe, what is it? A wall, a void, what? If it is a void, then there is more to space.
philbo1965uk Posted October 10, 2004 Posted October 10, 2004 Yes a void,if only peeps can grasp just what the meaning of a void actually is,they would understand.I dont claim to be all knowing unlike some people here,but along with my bad grammer and punctuation i do get it.Neither do i claim my opinion is originally my own,believe it or not S.Hawking does reply to emails.He has sent me a few and although some point out errors in reasoning,none have been to pick me up on grammer.And just to add for the next flammers of my post.Hawking isnt my friend if i need to prove his correspondance to me is genuine i will take great delight in ramming it up their noses
Mad Mardigan Posted October 10, 2004 Posted October 10, 2004 Not doubting you, I know many people in NASCAR, and I have ate supper with Richard Petty a couple of times at his house. What is the meaning of void to you?
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