Martin Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 (edited) What was my original "speculation" anyway... oh right our unlimited four dimensional plane. What was wrong with that idea anyway? Dark matter try for a little more accuracy..... Your initial claim was not that we live in an unbounded 4D plane. That sounds like a single space, flat in the appropriate sense. Possibly a Euclidean spacetime. That is a simple familiar model and if someone says that it is hard to object. You didn't say that. Your initial claim was this It's a well known fact that space consists of an infinite amount of 4 dimensional planes, though if we're speaking in the fourth dimension, it's spaces. ... [EDIT: total blunder. thought I was quoting Dark matter and quoted antimatter by mistake.] ... =================== It has been courteously pointed out that this whole post is dumb. I had too much going on here and was in a rush and thought I was quoting one person in replying to another. I'd delete it but then you wouldnt know what doG and antimatter were referring to. Edited June 3, 2008 by Martin
doG Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 Dark matter ... Whom are you addressing? You've quoted both Dark Matter and antimatter...
antimatter Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 I already agreed that I was wrong. I read it in a book, and now I found out the book was wrong.
Martin Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 Whom are you addressing? You've quoted both Dark Matter and antimatter... LOL doG, antimatter please forgive me! I was trying to do something else at the same time and completely blew it. Antimatter you are cool, I have no criticisms. I was trying to argue with Dark matter and got confused with my quotes. Sorry.
Martin Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 Well antimatter in this case I'm completely sincere. You heard what various people said and adapted. I had a really hectic past hour and half with things that had to be done in the middle of other things, phonecalls, and repairing my wife's paper cutter etc . Plus eyedrops every hour. Temporary vision problem. So this time you are cool and I blew it. I still have the feeling that there is something with Dark matter that I have to address, but can't manage the time. Tomorrow maybe. See y'all later.
Dark matter Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 Space is infinite yet finite. I look at it much like a really big coordinate plane with an x, y, and z axis because numbers on a grid never end. I don't believe I made a speculation, only a way of looking at space. If I were to see space, it would basically be what Dark matter said, but what space is, is an infinite amount of 4 dimensional planes... It was then Antimatter who then stated the deal about an infinite amount of 4 demensional spaces. I never liked playing "he said, she said"
iNow Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 I never liked playing "he said, she said" Yeah, but it sure is a lot easier when you're in a forum where the exact text of your response is recorded and viewable!
antimatter Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 See, I said it, but then realized I made a mistake. You'd still need a fifth dimension in your theory.
Dark matter Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 (edited) Yeah, but it sure is a lot easier when you're in a forum where the exact text of your response is recorded and viewable! You got that right! See, I said it, but then realized I made a mistake.You'd still need a fifth dimension in your theory. It's not a theory, it's just a simple way of looking at how space and time effect each other. Another flaw would be a 5th dimension, but no first draft is perfect! Edited June 3, 2008 by Dark matter multiple post merged
antimatter Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 The 5th dimension isn't a flaw, the flaw is NOT HAVING a fifth dimension. What you've described IS a theory btw...
Dark matter Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 The 5th dimension isn't a flaw, the flaw is NOT HAVING a fifth dimension.What you've described IS a theory btw... Yes, that's what I meant, my fault. There are different ways of looking at it, but I don't believe it's a theroy because I don't actually think that there is a giant "graph like structure" within our universe. I think that it is just a way of looking at our universe.
pioneer Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 The topic is does space end. The first question is, what would space-time look like without time? Instead of space-time, say we had only space. It would be empty space where there is no expression in time. It stays the same forever and never changes. Maybe space-time only goes as far as there is some expression within time. After that space-time becomes space. Look at it this way, space-time is a sort of a coordinate system. If we are not using the 4th or time dimension, by default, we only need space to be able to express nothing that is occurring in space. To create the need for space-time, out of space, we need to add something or anything that uses time to express whatever it does. The analogy is using (x,y,z) to plot an x,y plane. Just because we use a 3-D plot this does does not make the plane 3-D. We can rid of Z and not affect anything. If we add even a tiny bump to the plane, we need to add Z back.
Dark matter Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 The topic is does space end. The first question is, what would space-time look like without time? Instead of space-time, say we had only space. It would be empty space where there is no expression in time. It stays the same forever and never changes. Maybe space-time only goes as far as there is some expression within time. After that space-time becomes space. Look at it this way, space-time is a sort of a coordinate system. If we are not using the 4th or time dimension, by default, we only need space to be able to express nothing that is occurring in space. To create the need for space-time, out of space, we need to add something or anything that uses time to express whatever it does. The analogy is using (x,y,z) to plot an x,y plane. Just because we use a 3-D plot this does does not make the plane 3-D. We can rid of Z and not affect anything. If we add even a tiny bump to the plane, we need to add Z back. Much agreed, however; you might want to look at some other comments before you post one almost exactly similar to an argument that has been going on for two pages. No hard feelings though.. -Dark Matter
antimatter Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 The topic is does space end. The first question is, what would space-time look like without time? Instead of space-time, say we had only space. It would be empty space where there is no expression in time. It stays the same forever and never changes. Maybe space-time only goes as far as there is some expression within time. After that space-time becomes space. Look at it this way, space-time is a sort of a coordinate system. If we are not using the 4th or time dimension, by default, we only need space to be able to express nothing that is occurring in space. To create the need for space-time, out of space, we need to add something or anything that uses time to express whatever it does. The analogy is using (x,y,z) to plot an x,y plane. Just because we use a 3-D plot this does does not make the plane 3-D. We can rid of Z and not affect anything. If we add even a tiny bump to the plane, we need to add Z back. You NEED the fourth and fifth dimension to accurately see space! What you are discussing is a cube...
Kyrisch Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 I don't personally believe that space is infinite. What I do believe is that the universe must be infinite because the universe, as has been said before, is everything. Space, however, as we know it, with dimensions and stuff, the likes of which itself expanded during the big bang, is probably like a sphere (not that it must be spherical, but rather that it should be some enclosed, n-dimensional figure). The reason that no end is apparent, is because nothing can exist in not-space, so whenever light, or matter, or anything encounters an "edge" it bends along the contours of the universe following the path of least resistance.
antimatter Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 How do you know that space isn't the entire universe? As far as I know, space is everything that occupies the universe.
Kyrisch Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 Because before the Big Bang there was still something. It wasn't space though, it was something like quantum froth. The Big Bang marked the expansion of dimensional space, which is still expanding today.
antimatter Posted June 5, 2008 Posted June 5, 2008 Because before the Big Bang there was still something. It wasn't space though, it was something like quantum froth. No.
Kyrisch Posted June 5, 2008 Posted June 5, 2008 No. Alright, enlighten me. I was always taught that the Big Bang marked the inception and expansion of dimensional space itself.
antimatter Posted June 5, 2008 Posted June 5, 2008 The Big Bang was the beginning of the Universe, which is, by definition: everything. If the Big Bang was EVERYTHING, there can't be ANYTHING before it.
iNow Posted June 5, 2008 Posted June 5, 2008 Just to be fair... the big bang is one proposed model of the beginning. The true issue is that, if this model is accurate and appropriately descriptive, spacetime began at the big bang. This means also that time itself began at the big bang. If you are consistent in your logic, this means that there is no such thing as "before" the big bang, since time itself did not yet exist until the rapid inflation began. There are some uncertainties yet to be dissected in this model, and other models may still come forth as a better description. I just wanted to put that out there for clarity. Enjoy.
antimatter Posted June 5, 2008 Posted June 5, 2008 There was nothing before the Big Bang, that's basically what I was saying. but thanks for putting it into more...understandable words than I did.
Kyrisch Posted June 5, 2008 Posted June 5, 2008 Current models of M-Theory and such hold that the multiverse existed before the Big Bang and the creation of space and time.
antimatter Posted June 5, 2008 Posted June 5, 2008 That doesn't make sense though... Read what I wrote before, The Big Bang was the beginning of the Universe, which is, by definition: everything.If the Big Bang was EVERYTHING, there can't be ANYTHING before it. Now read what iNow wrote: The true issue is that, if this model is accurate and appropriately descriptive, spacetime began at the big bang. This means also that time itself began at the big bang. If you are consistent in your logic, this means that there is no such thing as "before" the big bang, since time itself did not yet exist until the rapid inflation began. What you're saying doesn't make sense.
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