God gave humanity to Satan as a gift and reward.

[Greatest I am]

God gave humanity to Satan as a gift and reward.

 

God, in the beginning, created all that was. He called it Eden and put adam in it. The lower case adam, means society. God later called us Adam and Eve, to designate and differentiate man and woman. That is likely why creation of man is shown twice in Genesis.

 

He then gave all of us to Satan as a gift and made him the ruler of this world as a reward. This maintains the illusion that God gave us free will. After all, free will means we are able to rule ourselves so God himself cannot call himself our ruler without negating our free will. We cannot do as we will if we are following his will. This is quite simple to understand.

 

Satan, the great deceiver, God’s favorite and glorious angel, was then given the power and instruction to deceive all of mankind. This is obviously why Satan and or the talking serpent were in Eden. God does not put a fox in the henhouse without good reason. The reason was to insure that Adam and Eve became as Gods. You will know that the loss of the tree of life is never shown as a loss anywhere in scripture. You likely know why.

 

Dogma says that God basically lost all control over mankind at that point and the absence of God, which many call evil and hell, attests to this as an irrefutable fact. Evil is definitely on earth and since God and evil is said to never be in the same place, we know that God is no longer here. We are on our own against Satan and his minions. A full third of the angels that God felt were good enough to be with his best, Satan.

 

Humanity is Satan’s beyond any doubt. He is the master and we are all slaves to sin.

 

God helps maintain this situation by insuring that all are born with original sin and sets our nature to do just that, sin.

 

Scripture is clear on these points. The big question is why?

 

This seems to be the only answer---------

 

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

This tells me that we must all sin and repent, to not perish and insure that we are saved.

 

Colossians 1: 15 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

It does not take a rocket scientist to dither out that if God were to lose any of us, that would not please him. A God, who had miracle available, would always make sure that his will is never thwarted.

 

The following type of scenario is then never allowed.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3LNL6wKhXA

 

Those with any sort of faith should know this, but somehow, they follow dogma and a theology that says that God does lose some of us and that somehow, even with all those miracles at hand, Satan and man can thwart God’s will and desire to save us all. This is impossible.

 

It seems that this bishop is be correct.

 

 

If we are all to be deceived as scripture indicates, and the majority of the world has faith, logic says that if you have faith in Jesus, God or Allah, then your faith is a deception from Satan. Many say that Satan’s greatest deception or trick is to fool us into believing that he does not exist. The opposite seems to be true and that it is God who is no longer here on this evil world.

 

Doubt is a good quality. It wards of gullibility.

 

Should you doubt your faith or do you somehow think that your particular faith, whichever it is, is exempt from Satan’s God given power of deception and dominion over you?

 

Are you so arrogant that you will ignore Gods own prophesy, that all will be deceived, by not judging the God offered by your church?

 

Do you dare take that chance and not judge your God, by his actions, to know if you follow a moral God or not?

 

If deceived, how could we possibly know?

 

I think there is only one solution. That is, compared the two major forms of law and morality on the planet. Secularism and religions.

 

I follow secular law because Satan has deceived you people of faith because I see that you love to hate, and demand that there be a place of punishment instead of a place to cure those you and your false God believe to be lost souls.

 

This Gnostic Christian says that God is a good and moral God and he cures souls. He does not torture them. Any that have truly repented of their sins will know this to be a truth and know that God‘s will that none be lost cannot be thwarted. Even in his never ending absence. He will never return because of the fact of our free will. If we are doing His will, we cannot be exercising our free will. God wants free men. Not slaves.

 

Where is our master Satan then?

 

In our sin nature.

 

Where else could spirit entities live?

 

 

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

God, in the beginning, created all that was. He called it Eden and put adam in it. The lower case adam, means society. God later called us Adam and Eve, to designate and differentiate man and woman. That is likely why creation of man is shown twice in Genesis.

Could you explain this more? I don't understand what you mean here.

 

He then gave all of us to Satan as a gift and made him the ruler of this world as a reward. This maintains the illusion that God gave us free will. After all, free will means we are able to rule ourselves so God himself cannot call himself our ruler without negating our free will. We cannot do as we will if we are following his will. This is quite simple to understand.

What scriptural or religious justification do you have for the claim that humanity was awarded to Satan as a gift?

 

A full third of the angels that God felt were good enough to be with his best, Satan.

Where'd you get this number from?

[Marat]

There are in principle an infinite regress of fanciful stories we can invent as hypotheses to explain the moral order of the universe. Why not say, for example, that the order of the universe is explained by Moe, Larry, and Curly struggling over possession of our souls, with each one of them represening some vector of human personality, and whenever Moe manages to poke Curly's eyes with two fingers, we all become more evil ... , etc.

 

It seems that all these hypothetical constructs suffer from four problems: First, they are not economical, and posit far more details than are required to motivate whatever hypothesis they are promoting. Second, they do not so much 'explain' the moral order of the universe as parallel it by a mythological picture which does not so much deepen our understanding as depict it cinematically. Third, they can never show that they are unique, since any number of stories can be matched up with the real world morally considered according to the vague and loose rules of fit that are required in such exercises. Fourth, they are unnecessary, since the most ordinary explanation of human morality is always to be preferred by basic methodological principles, and human morality can be easily explained as a set of rules for human social cooperation based on the posit that all our equal and are to be granted as much autonomy as is consistent with the equal autonomy of others and the effective functioning of society.

[Greatest I am]

Could you explain this more? I don't understand what you mean here.

 

This speaks to adam and Adam.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam

 

Genesis 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 1:26-28

Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

 

God creating Adam leads to incest. If God created adam, then there is no incest.

Christians, as usual, ignore the better Jewish way of reading Genesis.

 

 

What scriptural or religious justification do you have for the claim that humanity was awarded to Satan as a gift?

 

The temptation of Jesus by Satan and the notion that God cannot be where evil is.

 

If Satan did not have dominion over the earth, then he could not have tempted Jesus with something that was not his. The Bible writers would have known this.

It also explains why God is not here now, evil is here.

 

Where'd you get this number from?

 

Revelation speaks of when Satan was cast from heaven.

 

Revelation 12:9

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

Regards

DL

 

There are in principle an infinite regress of fanciful stories we can invent as hypotheses to explain the moral order of the universe. Why not say, for example, that the order of the universe is explained by Moe, Larry, and Curly struggling over possession of our souls, with each one of them represening some vector of human personality, and whenever Moe manages to poke Curly's eyes with two fingers, we all become more evil ... , etc.

 

It seems that all these hypothetical constructs suffer from four problems: First, they are not economical, and posit far more details than are required to motivate whatever hypothesis they are promoting. Second, they do not so much 'explain' the moral order of the universe as parallel it by a mythological picture which does not so much deepen our understanding as depict it cinematically. Third, they can never show that they are unique, since any number of stories can be matched up with the real world morally considered according to the vague and loose rules of fit that are required in such exercises. Fourth, they are unnecessary, since the most ordinary explanation of human morality is always to be preferred by basic methodological principles, and human morality can be easily explained as a set of rules for human social cooperation based on the posit that all our equal and are to be granted as much autonomy as is consistent with the equal autonomy of others and the effective functioning of society.

 

No argument on this.

 

Unfortunately, while the majority seem to be believers or at least profess to be, division will remain.

 

Religion are slowly dying but until they are basically dead, this quote tells us why what you posit in your last, is still far away.

 

"Whoever imagines himself a favorite with God,

holds other people in contempt.

Whenever a man believes that he has the exact truth from God,

there is in that man no spirit of compromise.

He has not the modesty born of the imperfections of human nature;

he has the arrogance of theological certainty and the tyranny born of ignorant assurance.

Believing himself to be the slave of God,

he imitates his master,

and of all tyrants,

the worst is a slave in power."

--Robert Ingersoll

 

Regards

DL

 

 

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

This speaks to adam and Adam.

I know what it speaks to. Could you explain the reasoning I quoted?

 

If Satan did not have dominion over the earth, then he could not have tempted Jesus with something that was not his.

I thought Satan was a famous liar.

 

Revelation speaks of when Satan was cast from heaven.

I know, but that is not what I asked you to justify. How did you arrive at the conclusion that "a full third of the angels that God felt were good enough to be with his best, Satan." How do you know it was a third? Does the Bible say which angels went to Satan?

[pwagen]

This speaks to adam and Adam.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam

 

Genesis 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 1:26-28

Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

 

God creating Adam leads to incest. If God created adam, then there is no incest.

Christians, as usual, ignore the better Jewish way of reading Genesis.

Are you saying that the story of Adam and Eve are not to be taken literally, but is simply describing the society of people that God created? Is this what Jews believe? I'm not too read-up on the differences between the creation myths of Christianity and Judaism.

 

The temptation of Jesus by Satan and the notion that God cannot be where evil is.

Is God not omnipotent?

 

[A Tripolation]

I follow secular law because Satan has deceived you people of faith because I see that you love to hate, and demand that there be a place of punishment instead of a place to cure those you and your false God believe to be lost souls.

 

Yeah. Sure. We love to hate. That's why I and many other Christians do not believe in a Hell for loving people. Or do you think you're the only Christian that finds Hell to be an abomination?

 

I know, but that is not what I asked you to justify. How did you arrive at the conclusion that "a full third of the angels that God felt were good enough to be with his best, Satan." How do you know it was a third? Does the Bible say which angels went to Satan?

 

The Book of Enoch (if we're counting the Apocrypha here) says that 200 angels left heaven and had children with human women. But other than that, the Bible never explicitly states an amount of fallen angels. I think it's safe to assume that demons are fallen angels. In Luke 8:30, there is a demon that speaks to Jesus, and he refers to himself as "Legion", because he is composed of many demons. So while we can assert that there is a sizable amount of fallen angels, we have no idea how many.

Edited April 27, 2011 by A Tripolation

[ydoaPs]

The Book of Enoch (if we're counting the Apocrypha here) says that 200 angels left heaven and had children with human women. But other than that, the Bible never explicitly states an amount of fallen angels.

IIRC, TBoE says that demons are the children of Lilith(Adam's first wife).

[lemur]

He then gave all of us to Satan as a gift and made him the ruler of this world as a reward. This maintains the illusion that God gave us free will. After all, free will means we are able to rule ourselves so God himself cannot call himself our ruler without negating our free will. We cannot do as we will if we are following his will. This is quite simple to understand.

What if "God's will" is not a single imperative but just a direction for free-choice? To make it as simple as possible, what if God's will meant nothing more than reasoning about what is good and evil, and the will to choose good because it makes you happy to see good things happen? In that case, if you freely chose to use your free will to reason about what was good and pursue it, how would that contradict God's will? What's more, isn't it in the biblical logic of Satan as meaning "opposer" that the very logic that individual free will and God's will are necessarily in opposition would be satanic? If you would convince people that they should submit their free will to some external authority that doesn't encourage them to exercise free will, wouldn't you just be usurping people's free-will in favor of submission to worldly authority?

[Greatest I am]

I know what it speaks to. Could you explain the reasoning I quoted?

 

I have no idea what you are looking for.

 

I thought Satan was a famous liar.

 

 

So we are told.

 

We are also told that Jesus was God and I must assume that God can tell lies from truth.

 

I know, but that is not what I asked you to justify. How did you arrive at the conclusion that "a full third of the angels that God felt were good enough to be with his best, Satan." How do you know it was a third? Does the Bible say which angels went to Satan?

 

Tradition.

 

http://www.steliart.com/angelology_fallen_heavens_war.html

 

Regards

DL

 

Are you saying that the story of Adam and Eve are not to be taken literally,

 

 

Not to mention that to believe it literally, one would have to believe in talking snakes and a God who would allow access to his new humans to a supernatural entity who has the power to deceive the whole world. That is just too ridiculous a notion. You would also have to believe that God would punish A & E for becomng like him which is what the Bible tells us to do. Again ridiculous. Yet many theists believe such B S thanks to their dogma.

 

but is simply describing the society of people that God created? Is this what Jews believe? I'm not too read-up on the differences between the creation myths of Christianity and Judaism.

 

 

 

Jews and their various sects hold a variety of beliefs.

 

Generally, most do not read scriptures literally. They are not as retarded as other Abrahamic cults.

 

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

 

 

Is God not omnipotent?

 

 

 

So says dogma but God's dismal success rate says otherwise.

 

Think of Noah's day.

HOW does an omnipotent being suddenly regret anything and everything he had ever done?

Is he not supposed to be perfect and all knowing?

 

Regards

DL

 

 

 

 

Yeah. Sure. We love to hate. That's why I and many other Christians do not believe in a Hell for loving people. Or do you think you're the only Christian that finds Hell to be an abomination?

 

 

Three things.

 

First.

Do not insult me by calling me a Christian.

 

Second.

Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.

Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.

 

If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.

 

 

You should think of hell just a bit and recognize that God would not create such an immoral construct. Lose your barbaric tribal mentality. We are in 2010, not 110.

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9FKn4rKXEY&feature=related

 

 

 

 

 

Lastly.

 

Judgment and punishment go hand in hand.

 

Our human laws have a form of punishment where the penalty is graduated to fit the crime. An eye for an eye type of justice.

 

God‘s punishment seems to surpass this standard.

 

 

 

The definition I am comparing here is the eternal fire and torture type of hell and I am not particularly interested in the myriad of other definitions and theories that some use to supplant this traditional view.

 

 

 

To ascertain if hell would be a moral construct or not, all you need do is answer these

 

simple question for yourself.

 

1. Is it good justice for a soul to be able to sin for only 120 years and then have to suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 + years?

 

2. Is it good justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?

 

This might actually include God if you see Noah’s flood as God using genocide and not justice against man. Pardon the digression.

 

Punishment is usually only given to change attitude or actions and cause the sinner to repent.

 

3. Is it good justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?

 

4. If you answered yes to these questions, then would killing the soul not be a better form of justice than to torture it for no possible good result or purpose?

 

Is hell a moral construct or not?

 

Please explain your reasons and know that ---just because God created it ---does not explain your moral judgment. It is your view I seek and not God’s as no one can speak for God.

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

 

What if "God's will" is not a single imperative but just a direction for free-choice? To make it as simple as possible, what if God's will meant nothing more than reasoning about what is good and evil, and the will to choose good because it makes you happy to see good things happen? In that case, if you freely chose to use your free will to reason about what was good and pursue it, how would that contradict God's will?

 

It should not but it seems it does. I think it is because of man distorting the original myth but let‘s look at it as generally believed by theists.

 

A & E did use their free will to reason about what was good and evil and decided to follow what the Bible later tells us to do. Know good and evil and become like God.

 

The Jews and Hebrew saw this as mans elevation but Christians turned it around and called it a fall. Guilt building for $$$.

 

All people seem to think that developing a moral sense is a good idea yet God punished the hell out of all of us for doing this right thing. Go figure.

 

 

What's more, isn't it in the biblical logic of Satan as meaning "opposer" that the very logic that individual free will and God's will are necessarily in opposition would be satanic? If you would convince people that they should submit their free will to some external authority that doesn't encourage them to exercise free will, wouldn't you just be usurping people's free-will in favor of submission to worldly authority?

 

Yes. Our free wil seems to opposed God's notion of free will.

 

His free will gift, to my way of thinking, is not free will at all but a threat and coercion.He says, do things my way or burn forever in hell.

 

Hardly a free choice now is it?

 

Regards

DL

Edited April 28, 2011 by Greatest I am

[A Tripolation]

To ascertain if hell would be a moral construct or not, all you need do is answer these

 

simple question for yourself.

 

1. Is it good justice for a soul to be able to sin for only 120 years and then have to suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 + years?

 

2. Is it good justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?

 

This might actually include God if you see Noah’s flood as God using genocide and not justice against man. Pardon the digression.

 

Punishment is usually only given to change attitude or actions and cause the sinner to repent.

 

3. Is it good justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?

 

4. If you answered yes to these questions, then would killing the soul not be a better form of justice than to torture it for no possible good result or purpose?

 

Is hell a moral construct or not?

 

Please explain your reasons and know that ---just because God created it ---does not explain your moral judgment. It is your view I seek and not God’s as no one can speak for God.

 

If you had READ what I had written, instead of just imagining what I had written, you would've seen that I AGREE WITH YOU. I believe Hell exists for the truly corrupted souls. Hitler, Stalin, Ghengis Khan, and maybe even Joshua from the Bible. That guy was sick. He murdered so many innocent people.

 

I DO NOT believe that atheists/muslims/insert-non-christian-here will go to Hell simply for not believing. Just murderers, rapists, child molesters. People who feed on hurting other people. The idea that God would advocate good people going to Hell is ridiculous in every way.

[ydoaPs]

The idea that God would advocate good people going to Hell is ridiculous in every way.

So is your face! Sorry, had to be done. As you were.

[A Tripolation]

So is your face! Sorry, had to be done. As you were.

 

^ Now this guy? He has an express ticket to the lake of fire.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

I have no idea what you are looking for.

You said something about the distinction between lowercase and capitalized Adam, and said that it explains why there are two creation stories in Genesis. Could you explain this more carefully? I do not understand how it works.

 

So we are told.

 

We are also told that Jesus was God and I must assume that God can tell lies from truth.

No wonder he rejected Satan's offer, then.

 

 

Tradition.

 

http://www.steliart.com/angelology_fallen_heavens_war.html

That page is silly. Claims like "perhaps the most likely time for the battle to have happened, lies somewhere between the Old and New Testament" are trivially false, because the Old Testament was only canonized after the writing of parts of the New Testament. (Also, the quoted sentence has a rather nasty comma splice.) The tradition seems to be the one from the Book of Enoch, but that was never canonized or granted status in the Church (besides being quoted a bit).

[ydoaPs]

^ Now this guy? He has an express ticket to the lake of fire.

How did you know? I made that back in high school. Totally legit; it even has signatures of two witnesses. I wonder if I still have that somewhere.

[Greatest I am]

If you had READ what I had written, instead of just imagining what I had written, you would've seen that I AGREE WITH YOU. I believe Hell exists for the truly corrupted souls. Hitler, Stalin, Ghengis Khan, and maybe even Joshua from the Bible. That guy was sick. He murdered so many innocent people.

 

I DO NOT believe that atheists/muslims/insert-non-christian-here will go to Hell simply for not believing. Just murderers, rapists, child molesters. People who feed on hurting other people. The idea that God would advocate good people going to Hell is ridiculous in every way.

 

I was aware of where your head was at. At the wrong place. That is why I gave the above. I was hoping you would think about things but I see that you did not.

 

Any infinite punishment for an finite sin is immoral.

 

For God to look in hell in the far future and see even Hitler and Stalin there, and have to recognize that out of a life of many years in hell, that they only sinned for .00000000000000000000000000000000001 % of their lives and were tortured for the rest, shows a completely immoral God.

 

If you agree with that hell creating God then that shows your poor morals and not our true God’s.

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

 

You said something about the distinction between lowercase and capitalized Adam, and said that it explains why there are two creation stories in Genesis. Could you explain this more carefully? I do not understand how it works.

 

 

I don’t think I can.

 

The above I got from talking with Jews.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillith

 

Jews are where I was told of the adam/society and Adam, the man.

 

Since it fit my view of Eden being just a coming of age myth, I did not dig further. Perhaps you can check with any Jew that you might know.

 

I do not know any here as yet.

 

 

That page is silly. Claims like "perhaps the most likely time for the battle to have happened, lies somewhere between the Old and New Testament" are trivially false, because the Old Testament was only canonized after the writing of parts of the New Testament. (Also, the quoted sentence has a rather nasty comma splice.) The tradition seems to be the one from the Book of Enoch, but that was never canonized or granted status in the Church (besides being quoted a bit).

 

You are bound to get silly claims all over the Bible.

Myths are like that sometimes.

 

Listen to this Jew talk of it.

 

 

 

Regards

DL

[A Tripolation]

I was aware of where your head was at. At the wrong place. That is why I gave the above. I was hoping you would think about things but I see that you did not.

 

Any infinite punishment for an finite sin is immoral.

 

For God to look in hell in the far future and see even Hitler and Stalin there, and have to recognize that out of a life of many years in hell, that they only sinned for .00000000000000000000000000000000001 % of their lives and were tortured for the rest, shows a completely immoral God.

 

If you agree with that hell creating God then that shows your poor morals and not our true God’s.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong for someone like Hitler to burn for all of eternity. Look at the pictures of bodies of children that were burned alive, their parents trying to protect them. And then tell me he doesn't deserve a place like Hell. If those are your morals, then I can easily see what kind of person you are.

 

 

 

You are bound to get silly claims all over the Bible.

Myths are like that sometimes.

 

Cap'n was calling you out on a website you cited that was crap. One that could not even interpret something concrete in the Bible correctly. Don't try to blame it on the Bible.

[swansont]

Jews and their various sects hold a variety of beliefs.

 

Generally, most do not read scriptures literally. They are not as retarded as other Abrahamic cults.

 

!

Moderator Note

Slurs against people or groups is unacceptable. General rule 1c and religion rule 1a are clear on this. Post in a civil manner or not at all.

[Greatest I am]

I don't think there is anything wrong for someone like Hitler to burn for all of eternity. Look at the pictures of bodies of children that were burned alive, their parents trying to protect them. And then tell me he doesn't deserve a place like Hell. If those are your morals, then I can easily see what kind of person you are.

 

I stand by my better moral position.

 

If you think it is more moral for a God to torture someone without purpose forever, instead of just curing them the way he can, it shows your own foolishness as no self respecting God tortures without purpose. Sick.

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

I don’t think I can.

 

The above I got from talking with Jews.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillith

 

Jews are where I was told of the adam/society and Adam, the man.

Lillith is mythological; I don't know if the myth is the basis of any Biblical interpretation.

 

Since it fit my view of Eden being just a coming of age myth, I did not dig further. Perhaps you can check with any Jew that you might know.

If you can't explain to me the points you make, I wonder whether you understand them either.

 

You are bound to get silly claims all over the Bible.

Myths are like that sometimes.

As A Tripolation pointed out, this is a silly claim on a website you cited as evidence, not a silly claim in the Bible. So: How does this fallen angels thing work? You still have not provided Biblical or canonical evidence of it.

 

I stand by my better moral position.

 

If you think it is more moral for a God to torture someone without purpose forever, instead of just curing them the way he can, it shows your own foolishness as no self respecting God tortures without purpose. Sick.

Thomas Hobbes had the same problem you have, and resolved the issue by guaranteeing finite punishment in an infinite lake of fire. Those being punished stay in Hell for as long as is appropriate, but may have children while there which perpetuate the lake of fire and let it burn into eternity with more sinners.

[keelanz]

why is the devil evil if he tortures the bad guys?

[Greatest I am]

Lillith is mythological; I don't know if the myth is the basis of any Biblical interpretation.

 

 

If you can't explain to me the points you make, I wonder whether you understand them either.

 

 

As A Tripolation pointed out, this is a silly claim on a website you cited as evidence, not a silly claim in the Bible. So: How does this fallen angels thing work? You still have not provided Biblical or canonical evidence of it.

 

 

Thomas Hobbes had the same problem you have, and resolved the issue by guaranteeing finite punishment in an infinite lake of fire. Those being punished stay in Hell for as long as is appropriate, but may have children while there which perpetuate the lake of fire and let it burn into eternity with more sinners.

 

Stupider ansd stupider.

 

There is nowhere in scripture that I know of where hell is not infinite.

 

As I showed above, I do not believe any angels fell. God does not give to Satan the whole of manking to rule if he sees him as fallen.

 

You have God sentencing Satan to hell and then deferring the sentence so that he can corrupt souls. How droll.

 

Regards

DL

 

why is the devil evil if he tortures the bad guys?

 

You should not ask logical question of any theists.

You will not get a logical answer back.

 

Regards

DL

[lemur]

Back to the OP: I saw the thread title and it gave me an idea. What if God indeed gave humans to satan because he didn't know what to do after drowning them all in the flood and then feeling too bad about it to ever do so again? It's as if he realized that they are sinners and doesn't know what to do about it so he just gives them up, maybe like in the story of Job, to be tried by torture. Then, the for the ones who seek a way out of the eternal torture of sinning and being sinned against, he offers light and salvation. But maybe he just decided for those who desire sin and can take (and give) the pain, let them have satan as their master to guide them in their journey through (self)destruction.

[Greatest I am]

Back to the OP: I saw the thread title and it gave me an idea. What if God indeed gave humans to satan because he didn't know what to do after drowning them all in the flood and then feeling too bad about it to ever do so again? It's as if he realized that they are sinners and doesn't know what to do about it so he just gives them up, maybe like in the story of Job, to be tried by torture. Then, the for the ones who seek a way out of the eternal torture of sinning and being sinned against, he offers light and salvation. But maybe he just decided for those who desire sin and can take (and give) the pain, let them have satan as their master to guide them in their journey through (self)destruction.

 

 

This might work except if you think of your sins. They aware likely fun.

 

Most of mine were rather enjoyable and fun or I would not have done them.

 

No self destruction involved.

 

I do know that not all sins are victimless and when there is a true victim, the fun or self gratification may not work quite the same way as other more victimless sins. Every sinner is different and some are quite nasty.

 

 

 

God seems to think that repentance is crucial and if it is, then we must all sin as we must all repent.

 

 

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

[A Tripolation]

why is the devil evil if he tortures the bad guys?

 

The Devil does not torture bad guys. Nor does he have dominion over the lake of fire. This is a common misconception, even amongst Christians.

 

As I showed above, I do not believe any angels fell. God does not give to Satan the whole of manking to rule if he sees him as fallen.

 

Except the whole "cast out of heaven" part, huh? You wanna gloss over that some more?