The Algerian entomologist Posted April 30, 2011 Posted April 30, 2011 hello every body. first a little presentation of myself...i am a young entomologist from Algeria, i am 20 years old...and i hope to be a big biologist in future if God wants that...please if i make mistakes in my English please correct me. in my little experience with insects i have observed that there is a real deal with the theory of evolution. but what i don't understand is how the hell, human descend from a primate even if the primate possess 46 pair of chromosomes and human only 23 pairs!!... could we make a new evolution to human body to a primate now in this time?!!...i think it is impossible...so why the hell did us say and "prove" with stupidity that humans descend from a primate...and in order to prove what we are saying we cannot reproduce this "experience"... i have the certainty that god is the author of the human creation...and i "fight" to prove that to all humanity... what is your Opinion. Ramzi.
SMF Posted April 30, 2011 Posted April 30, 2011 (edited) The Algerian entomologist: Here is a link to a research article that is an example of the large scientific literature on the genetic details of primate evolution- http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18293104 . Do you think that the scientists working on evolution have just forgotten some important and obvious problem? I think you should do some studying and then ask some questions. Here is an educational site that has an article that links to more information- http://theforcethat....-evolution.html SM EDIT- I did a little more searching for you. Here is a more relevant article- http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/gb-2001-2-6-reviews0005.pdf7%20K and here is the search with very many pages of research- http://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=0&q=chromosome+primate+evolution&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5 Edited April 30, 2011 by SMF
The Algerian entomologist Posted April 30, 2011 Author Posted April 30, 2011 don't understand that i don't believe in evolution !...it is certain that there is a link between humans and chimpanzees ...specialy because god said in the Quran (because i am muslim) that he had changed some humans, from a tribe that i cannot note; into chimpanzees!! ...and i believe that the spice of chimpanzee which is very linked to human is that spice which we study in laboratories... do you understand me now?...it is certain also that human apparition is the last apparition in the world...even if some spices of rats "appears" surprisingly in laboratories...i mean the appearance of a very developed organism like human cannot happen in our ere...so we have not the opportunity to study the mechanisms "in nature"... i wish to receive notifications about new massages in my email address what can i do for that.
Ringer Posted April 30, 2011 Posted April 30, 2011 If we were only related to chimpanzees that may have some sort of validity, but, alas, that isn't the case. We are related to all primates, who are related to all mice, who are related to all mammals, ad infinitum. And could you explain what you mean by human's being the last apparition? I take it to mean that humans are the last species to evolve, which is very obviously not the case. Horses are technically more modern than humans, I think the modern horse evolved ~10,000 thousand years ago while humans ~50,000 years ago.
SMF Posted April 30, 2011 Posted April 30, 2011 The Algerian entomologist: Like Ringer says, if you believe in evolution you should believe that humans evolved from some precursor to a bacterium, not just another primate. In your original post you seemed to be concerned with discrepant chromosome number as a problem for evolution of primates and I gave you some references to start your own investigation of this complicated topic. One of the papers talked about genetic relationships between many different creatures, not just primates. Now you are saying something different- don't understand that i don't believe in evolution !...it is certain that there is a link between humans and chimpanzees ...specialy because god said in the Quran (because i am muslim) that he had changed some humans, from a tribe that i cannot note; into chimpanzees!! ...and i believe that the spice of chimpanzee which is very linked to human is that spice which we study in laboratories... do you understand me now?...it is certain also that human apparition is the last apparition in the world...even if some spices of rats "appears" surprisingly in laboratories...i mean the appearance of a very developed organism like human cannot happen in our ere...so we have not the opportunity to study the mechanisms "in nature"... What is “spice.” This whole statement is very hard to understand, but I think you are making the very old and incorrect argument that because we can’t have observed some aspect of evolution directly, that it can’t be studied or believed. If this were true then we also can’t claim that electrons exist because they can’t be observed, or that the sun is a nuclear reactor because we can’t see inside it, or that the tree that fell down in my yard during the last storm was blown over by the wind because I didn’t see it fall, or that any of the writings in your religious texts have any validity because you didn’t observe the events they describe or anyone making the writing. You have “changed the goal posts” and seem to want to argue religion, not learn science, so I will not participate unless you wish to discuss some specific scientific question. You can start by explaining why chromosome number is a problem for evolutionary theory. SM
The Algerian entomologist Posted April 30, 2011 Author Posted April 30, 2011 (edited) excuse me first i don't want to speak about religion because it is forbidden. I don't master English very well and I haven't understand what you mean, i mean i didn't understand largely... i mean in my intervention that for me "religion agree always with Science"...and i think that even if it seems not in agreement with science ...you need to have some spirituality... so you asked me to explain why chromosome number is a problem for evolutionary theory? I thought that a change in the number of chromosomes between the primate and human which is very important - like 23 pairs !- is...i think...an argument that we are going to prove something wrong... i master French very well because i study in French if you give me the permission i can make arrive the idea more easily... for the "spice" i don't mean only chimpanzees but i mean primates generally...because god said primates and not specifies the spice which is chimpanzee... that is what i believe...the following "the actual spices of primates are "real" humans transformed into primates that's why we find a lot of things between us and them...this, firstly...secondly i support this idea by an other argument that in the early apparition of human i mean in the ere of Adam and Eva a very big tribe of humans descend from this couple (thousands of people)...and the apparition on earth of Chimpanzee and all primates occurs in the event of the transformation of some descendent of Adam and Eva into "primates" it was a punishment from god for them...and this kind of "human" (in your mean primates)...is in multiplication till now!!"... do you understand...that is my believe and of course you can believe what i say in same way you could not believe... so abstractly; my idea is : what you are designing like evolution of primate into a human have not occured into the way "primate into human" but "human into primate"... and lastly i am here to improve my education and my scientific level by practising English and sharing knowledges. you didn't told me about the notification ?...i don't receive any thing?!!... Edited April 30, 2011 by The Algerian entomologist
pwagen Posted April 30, 2011 Posted April 30, 2011 so you asked me to explain why chromosome number is a problem for evolutionary theory? I thought that a change in the number of chromosomes between the primate and human which is very important - like 23 pairs !- is...i think...an argument that we are going to prove something wrong... Here's a link explaining that. There's no doubt humans evolved from primates, not the other way around. And to clear up, spice = species
The Algerian entomologist Posted April 30, 2011 Author Posted April 30, 2011 (edited) thanks "my friend". but who is Ken Miller? Edited April 30, 2011 by The Algerian entomologist
pwagen Posted April 30, 2011 Posted April 30, 2011 Kenneth Raymond Miller (born 1948) is a biology professor at Brown University. Miller, who is Roman Catholic, is particularly known for his opposition to creationism, including the intelligent design (ID) movement. He has written two books on the subject: Finding Darwin's God, which argues that a belief in evolution is compatible with a belief in God; and Only a Theory, which explores ID and the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District case as well as its implications in science across America. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_R._Miller His personal site, I think: http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/
The Algerian entomologist Posted April 30, 2011 Author Posted April 30, 2011 i have observed that chimpanzee had 48 chromosomes instead 46 pairs...that's interesting but what we are turning around that is even if human descend from chimpanzee is not the chimpanzee a creation of god?!!...and i don't believe that god creates human from chimpanzee but the contrary, he creates chimpanzee from a human...by breaking the human's second chromosome. yes you are speaking about evolution, i agree, but no one can prove that the way of evolution is always positive?...i think that would be my Ph.D thesis...i am very convicted...
Moontanman Posted April 30, 2011 Posted April 30, 2011 (edited) i have observed that chimpanzee had 48 chromosomes instead 46 pairs...that's interesting but what we are turning around that is even if human descend from chimpanzee is not the chimpanzee a creation of god?!!...and i don't believe that god creates human from chimpanzee but the contrary, he creates chimpanzee from a human...by breaking the human's second chromosome. yes you are speaking about evolution, i agree, but no one can prove that the way of evolution is always positive?...i think that would be my Ph.D thesis...i am very convicted... Evolution is not always positive, evolution actually has no direction, natural selection is not directing anything in any direction other than survival. You should also note the number of chromosomes has nothing to do with the complexity of the animal, amoeba have a huge number of chromosomes, so do many ferns. I respect your belief in God but you have to understand that while seeing God in nature makes perfect sense if you are a believer, trying to tie God to science has many pitfalls not the lest of which is that science changes it's stance on things as new evidence comes in, religion not so much. It's much like the saying, "i have no problem with the concept of God it's his fan club that is really disturbing". If you say, for instance, that the Big Bang theory is how God made the universe then next year some intelligent individual finds evidence that we were wrong about the big bang theory then does God become wrong too? Or does religion require that everyone believe the big bang theory because it agrees with religion? Mixing the two is always a risk to your own belief system if you are honest about what you believe. Edited April 30, 2011 by Moontanman
The Algerian entomologist Posted May 1, 2011 Author Posted May 1, 2011 to Moonmountain : so my dear friend I want inform you about something very important in my personality but in private. you see, you are obligating me to speak about my religion...if you want to be more informed just send me a PM OK?... i mean mountanman
Moontanman Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 to Moonmountain : so my dear friend I want inform you about something very important in my personality but in private. you see, you are obligating me to speak about my religion...if you want to be more informed just send me a PM OK?... i mean mountanman You'll have to send me a PM, for some reason it won't let me Pm you.
Ringer Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 i have observed that chimpanzee had 48 chromosomes instead 46 pairs...that's interesting but what we are turning around that is even if human descend from chimpanzee is not the chimpanzee a creation of god?!!...and i don't believe that god creates human from chimpanzee but the contrary, he creates chimpanzee from a human...by breaking the human's second chromosome. yes you are speaking about evolution, i agree, but no one can prove that the way of evolution is always positive?...i think that would be my Ph.D thesis...i am very convicted... Humans haven't evolved from chimpanzees anymore than chimpanzees evolved from humans. Both are a misunderstanding of evolution, one modern species doesn't evolved from another modern species, they come from a common ancestor. No one says evolution always have to be positive, except those anti-evolution people who think that for evolution to be true it must be linear and progressive, but only that there must be change over time. No one can prove it because it is not true, there are plenty of traits that could be considered neutral or negative in one situation that help in another, and it is in that way that natural selection can take place. 2
Moontanman Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 I think this thread should be in the religion section, it has nothing to do with discussing the evolution of insects and everything to do with religion vs science.
SMF Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 I ran across the website of P.Z. Meyers, a University of Minnesota biologist. He has a nice non technical piece on how chromosome numbers can change and I thought that it might be helpful to somebody who came across this thread. SM http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/basics_how_can_chromosome_numb.php
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