The conspiracy game!

[ewmon]

Here's a conspiracy theory perhaps worthy of its own thread.

 

US and Pakistan previously agreed that:

• there'd be hell to pay if Pakistan actively assisted US in obtaining OBL. So...
  
• the US will act unilaterally and secretly in obtaining OBL from Pakistan if found there;
  
• the US would immediately "terminate" OBL, to keep him from disclosing the truth; and
  
• the US and Pakistan will then pretend to distrust/despise one another
  (ie, Pakistan: "The US invaded us! Mean ol' Americans! (And they lie -- see below!)"
  and US: "Pakistani officials must have known OBL location. Let's cut its foreign aid!").
  

Otherwise, how could Pakistan ever cope with having assisted the US in obtaining OBL?

 

Well ... uh ... maybe I should work in international affairs

 

Osama bin Laden mission agreed in secret 10 years ago by US and Pakistan

 

The US and Pakistan struck a secret deal almost a decade ago permitting a US operation against Osama bin Laden on Pakistani soil similar to last week's raid that killed the al-Qaida leader, the Guardian has learned. ...

 

Under its terms, Pakistan would allow US forces to conduct a unilateral raid inside Pakistan in search of Bin Laden, his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, and the al-Qaida No3. Afterwards, both sides agreed, Pakistan would vociferously protest the incursion.

 

"There was an agreement between Bush and Musharraf that if we knew where Osama was, we were going to come and get him," said a former senior US official with knowledge of counterterrorism operations. "The Pakistanis would put up a hue and cry, but they wouldn't stop us." ...

 

The former US official said the Pakistani protests of the past week were the "public face" of the deal. "We knew they would deny this stuff." ...

 

Since Bin Laden's death, Pakistan has come under intense US scrutiny, including accusations that elements within Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence helped hide the al-Qaida leader.

[swansont]

Don't tell me none of you guys have ever heard of collusion, espionage and sabotage?

 

Sure. But one wants evidence of it, rather than assuming it's already present. They are not required here.

 

One must also note that "next door" in this case is "more than a kilometer away," and that a military college is not the same as a military base. What occurs outside is the jurisdiction of the local police, not a bunch of trainee soldiers.

 

And, one might add, cadets at a military academy are almost certainly not authorized to leave and go investigate on a whim. They would need permission, and that requires waking up the proper people in the chain of command and getting the OK, and that takes time.

[Marat]

Any commander of a U.S. military base of any description -- hospital, rehabilition, military college, or armory -- who heard helicopters, gunfire, and explosions the area and did not send scouts to investigate would be cashiered. Every sort of military installation is protected, and protection requires a pro-active response in the defensive zone around it. (When I was a student at the Free University of Berlin, we used to laugh at the jumpy, trigger-happy U.S. soldier who stood guard in front of Harnack House, a mere reception hall which happened to be under U.S. military control thanks to World War II.) I assume the Pakistani Army's military manuals state the same principles.

 

How fast can a military jeep cover the distance of a kilometer and a half in the dark? Two minutes? Even if you allow ten minutes for reaction time plus five minutes for travel to the site of the noise, the Pakistanis would still be there with 25 minutes to spare before the Navy Seals completed their mission.

 

The video from the civilians' amateur films of the fires around bin Laden's compound was shown today on BBC World News.

 

Another thing that doesn't seem right to me is that Obama said that they were not sure it was bin Laden's compound until they got inside. But this seems to conflict with the U.S. story promulgated earlier that bin Laden's courier was shot and killed outside the compound before the U.S. forces entered it. This would imply that the U.S. was already willing to murder people standing around the compound in the dark even without knowing who they were, which hardly comports with international law, which binds foreign sovereigns to compliance with the domestic criminal law of the host state when they are in its jurisdiction.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Any commander of a U.S. military base of any description -- hospital, rehabilition, military college, or armory -- who heard helicopters, gunfire, and explosions the area and did not send scouts to investigate would be cashiered. Every sort of military installation is protected, and protection requires a pro-active response in the defensive zone around it. (When I was a student at the Free University of Berlin, we used to laugh at the jumpy, trigger-happy U.S. soldier who stood guard in front of Harnack House, a mere reception hall which happened to be under U.S. military control thanks to World War II.) I assume the Pakistani Army's military manuals state the same principles.

In a country with frequent terrorist suicide attacks, it seems to me the worst possible response to explosions and gunfire is to throw a couple guys in a jeep and drive out to see what's up. Of course, the large explosion happened as the Americans were leaving, and the Pakistani Army arrived not long after to cordon off the area and figure out what had just happened.

 

Another thing that doesn't seem right to me is that Obama said that they were not sure it was bin Laden's compound until they got inside. But this seems to conflict with the U.S. story promulgated earlier that bin Laden's courier was shot and killed outside the compound before the U.S. forces entered it. This would imply that the U.S. was already willing to murder people standing around the compound in the dark even without knowing who they were, which hardly comports with international law, which binds foreign sovereigns to compliance with the domestic criminal law of the host state when they are in its jurisdiction.

Where'd you hear this story?

[swansont]

Any commander of a U.S. military base of any description -- hospital, rehabilition, military college, or armory -- who heard helicopters, gunfire, and explosions the area and did not send scouts to investigate would be cashiered. Every sort of military installation is protected, and protection requires a pro-active response in the defensive zone around it. (When I was a student at the Free University of Berlin, we used to laugh at the jumpy, trigger-happy U.S. soldier who stood guard in front of Harnack House, a mere reception hall which happened to be under U.S. military control thanks to World War II.) I assume the Pakistani Army's military manuals state the same principles.

 

How fast can a military jeep cover the distance of a kilometer and a half in the dark? Two minutes? Even if you allow ten minutes for reaction time plus five minutes for travel to the site of the noise, the Pakistanis would still be there with 25 minutes to spare before the Navy Seals completed their mission.

 

This comes from your extensive experience as commander (or at least staff) of a US military base?

 

How do you know the CO even lives on the base? The skipper of the base I'm at now doesn't. We aren't talking about some forward-deployed command, isolated and under constant threat of enemy attack. This is a school in a suburb.

 

I think it's far more likely that whatever security in place at night is the minimum to secure the perimeter. Unless you are in some alert status, you wouldn't even have extra personnel available to go investigate, (even if it were in your jurisdiction to do so) without compromising the security of the base, and that's the primary job. You'd have to get people out of bed and organize them (assuming that they, too live on the base). It's quite possible some contingent of the security is students standing watches as training. Not the ones you want to send anyway.

[rktpro]

Bin Laden owned an online porn site. He collected money out of it.

[rigney]

Bin Laden owned an online porn site. He collected money out of it.

Goes to show you how much I know about espionage. I can't find a porn store in Cleveland that doesn't have a sign, (picture) of Heidi with her knickers pulled down.

[swansont]

Bin Laden owned an online porn site. He collected money out of it.

 

http://www.borowitzreport.com/2011/05/08/bin-laden-invested-millions-in-company-that-makes-3oz-bottles-of-liquids-and-gels/

 

“We haven’t found anything in the computers that indicate Osama bin Laden wanted to rule the world,” Mr. Panetta said. “However, it is clear that he wanted to corner the market in 3-ounce bottles.”

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

http://www.nytimes.c...el.html?_r=1

 

WASHINGTON — President Obama insisted that the assault force hunting down Osama bin Laden last week be large enough to fight its way out of Pakistan if confronted by hostile local police officers and troops, senior administration and military officials said Monday.

 

So I guess if the Pakistani military academy woke up too quickly, we'd have blasted them out of the way before leaving.

[rktpro]

 

 

 

 

So I guess if the Pakistani military academy woke up too quickly, we'd have blasted them out of the way before leaving.

 

And It would have taken 4 minutes.

[rigney]

And It would have taken 4 minutes.

 

And just to lay things on an even keel, Yes; Bin Laden was given a descent funeral, just prior to his burial at sea.

 

May 02, 2011 the early AM. Somewhere in the Persian Gulf?, Bin Laden was given a religious funeral prior to his interment, senior naval officers confirmed to media.

 

Religious rituals were carried out by members of the 3rd shift "Black Gang", aboard the USS Carl Vinson aircraft carrier In accordance with Islamic practices. Bin Laden was washed, wrapped in a sheet of velvety, white pigs hair before being dumped, along with the days garbage; over the fantail.

 

But a US Navy SEAL custom for sworn enemies was also conducted. Team members took a leak on his shroud of pigs hair, followed by the Black Gang jamming a raw pork sandwich in his mouth and a kosher hot dog up his butt,(two minutes), before giving him the final deep six. This was confirmed and sworn to by Washington Diplomats onboard who feared the same, if they didn't tell the truth for once in their life.

 

What can you say other than:,"Semper Fi"!

[Marat]

Play: "The Death of bin Laden"

 

Act I, Scene i

 

Bin Laden sits in a dingy room watching television, huddled in a blanket, holding a monitor in his hand. There is a deafening crashing sound, stage left, from a helicopter blade striking the side of his compound.

 

Bin Laden: (turning up the volume, leaning back, shouting over his shoulder) Mounir! Fatima! Seyedi! For God's sake, keep it down back there! I'm trying to watch the final episode of 'Dancing With the Stars'!

 

-- Somehow, the scene doesn't ring true. In other news, today the former Pakistani Ambassador to the U.S. and U.K., Dr. Lohdi, said that the first that the Pakistani government knew of the U.S. incursion into its territory was when the noise of the U.S. helicopter crashing into bin Laden's compound was heard. She then added that at that point, Pakistan scrambled aircraft to send to the site of the noise, but they arrived too late.

 

This raises two interesting questions: 1) Where was the helicopter crash heard? I would suppose it must have been at the military college. 2) If it was heard at the military college, why didn't they intervene, rather than waiting implausibly for jets to be scrambled to respond to an event occurring on the ground a short walking distance away?

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

This raises two interesting questions: 1) Where was the helicopter crash heard? I would suppose it must have been at the military college. 2) If it was heard at the military college, why didn't they intervene, rather than waiting implausibly for jets to be scrambled to respond to an event occurring on the ground a short walking distance away?

A more plausible explanation, given that people nearby were already tweeting the events, is:

 

1. Neighbors call cops about helicopter crash
2. Cops go "it's a helicopter, let the Air Force deal with it"
3. Air Force sends jets to investigate unknown and possibly well-armed helicopters

swansont has already addressed why the academy was in a poor position to respond. Writing progressively more creative responses won't change that.

[rigney]

A more plausible explanation, given that people nearby were already tweeting the events, is:

 

1. Neighbors call cops about helicopter crash
2. Cops go "it's a helicopter, let the Air Force deal with it"
3. Air Force sends jets to investigate unknown and possibly well-armed helicopters

swansont has already addressed why the academy was in a poor position to respond. Writing progressively more creative responses won't change that.

 

You're right. Let's give it a rest! "ALAS and ALACK", Worm holes and bullet holes, may the two never meet. Edited May 12, 2011 by rigney

[rktpro]

Where is his son hiding? How could he slip away when SEAL was operating?

Probably, he was never there.

[rigney]

Where is his son hiding? How could he slip away when SEAL was operating?

Probably, he was never there.

 

Perhaps behind camels parked in the driveway? Or, under the bed of Bens second, third, fourth or fifth wives? Who knows, just a WAG.

[rktpro]

Perhaps behind camels parked in the driveway? Or, under the bed of Bens second, third, fourth or fifth wives? Who knows, just a WAG.

 

Or, perhaps USA has him with them!

[Marat]

I was amused at the euphemism of the U.S. spokesman who said that bin Laden's body was 'eased' into the ocean from the deck of the aircraft carrier after the funeral service. How many meters can a corpse free-fall through the air before splashing into the water for the process still to be described as 'easing' into the ocean?

 

CNN reported in detail this evening on the topic of speculation in this message thread. It turns out that even though there was a police station only a 5-minute drive away from bin Laden's compound, Pakistani police and army units (from the three battalions stationed at the Military College about the same distance away?) arrived there only an hour after the 40-minute commando operation had begun, and thus very shortly after the Navy Seals had left. (They were surprisingly accurate in how well they timed their lateness, if the point was not to create a confrontation with the U.S. Was someone telling them when it would be all right to appear, or were the Seals just miraculously lucky that no one from five minutes away bothered to come until just after they left?)

 

Locals describe encountering perimeter guards around the compound when they arrived to see what was going on, and they stated that these guards had laser-sighted weapons and spoke Pashto, the local language. (Does the U.S. have Pashto speakers with commando training on call just in case such a mission to that area of the world were ever necessary, or does the presence of these perimeter guards point to Pakistani Army cooperation providing a blocking force against bin Laden's potential escape in case he heard and responded to the helicopter noise and the possible crash of a helicopter against his compound prior to the storming of his residence? Was there time for the U.S. to unload and deploy these perimeter guards from the helicopters after the noise of the helicopters landing and the helicopter crash alerted the local population and brought them running to see what was happening? What guarantee could there have been that perimeter guards disembarking from helicopters could deploy around the compound before the compound's residents took off after hearing the helicopters approach, or after certainly hearing the crash? Wouldn't a military planner want them on the ground already prior to the warning from the helicopter noise, and if so, wouldn't that have to mean they were there with Pakistani Army cooperation?)

 

A local retired military officer interviewed said he heard the U.S. helicopters flying, so even though they were stealth helicopters their flight was audible to those on the ground.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Marat

[DevilSolution]

The conspiracy game sounds fun, so skype and the .net framework = sky.net, be afraid be very afraid