There is no time

[mpc755]

The clocks have to be adjusted because of relativity, not because of the physical environment. Great pains are taken to isolate the clocks from changes in the environment.

It is physically impossible to isolate the clocks from the state of the aether in which they exist.

 

Time does not change because an atomic clock ticks at a different rate, but nobody is contending that it does. You have the cause and effect backwards. Atomic clocks tick at a different rate because time has changed.

Atomic clocks tick based on the physical environment in which they exist. Atomic clocks tick based on the state of the aether in which they exist. The state of which is the state of displacement of the aether.

 

If you own a battery operated clock and it begins to tick slower do you insist it is time which has changed which is causing your battery operated clock to tick at a different rate? No, you understand what occurs physically in nature to cause the battery operated clock to tick slower. You replace the batteries.

 

Same with atomic clocks. The atomic clock ticks based on the state of the aether in which it exists.

 

Stating atomic clocks tick at a different rate because time has changed is no different than stating a battery operated clock ticks at a different rate because time has changed. They are both incorrect. They are both based on not understanding what occurs physically in nature to cause the clock to tick at a different rate.

 

If you choose to not understand why your battery operated clock ticks at a different rate and insist it is because time has changed does not mean time has changed. It means you do not understand what occurred physically in nature to cause your battery operated clock to tick at a different rate.

 

If you choose to not understand why an atomic clock ticks at a different rate and insist it is because time has changed does not mean time has changed. It means you do not understand what occurred physically in nature to cause the atomic clock to tick at a different rate.

 

'Hafele and Keating Experiment'

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/Relativ/airtim.html

 

"Relative to the atomic time scale of the U.S. Naval Observatory, the flying clocks lost 59+/-10 nanoseconds during the eastward trip and gained 273+/-7 nanosecond during the westward trip, where the errors are the corresponding standard deviations."

 

Flying with the Earth's rotation, eastward, is flying against the 'flow' of aether, relative to the surface of the Earth, causing a greater aether force on the atomic clock causing the atomic clock to tick slower. Flying against the Earth's rotation, westward, is flying with the 'flow' of aether, relative to the surface of the Earth, causing a lower aether force on the atomic clock causing the atomic clock to tick faster.

 

In terms of motion, the speed of a GPS satellite with respect to the aether causes it to displace more aether and for that aether to exert more force on the clock in the GPS satellite than the force of the aether associated with a clock at rest with respect to the Earth. This causes the GPS satellite clock to result in a delay of about 7 microseconds per day. The force of the aether associated with the aether displaced by the Earth exerts less force on the GPS satellite than a similar clock at rest on the Earth causing the GPS clocks to appear faster by about 45 microseconds per day. The force of the aether associated with the speed at which the GPS satellite moves with respect to the aether and the force of the aether associated with the aether displaced by the Earth causes clocks on the GPS satellites to tick approximately 38 microseconds per day faster than clocks on the ground.

 

Now you understand what occurs physically in nature to cause atomic clocks to tick at different rates.

 

When you respond back that it is time that changed which causes the atomic clock to tick at a different rate is no different than your insisting it is time that has changed which causes your battery operated clock to tick at a different rate. Simply because you refuse to understand what occurs physically in nature to cause a clock to tick at a different rate does not mean it is time which has changed which is causing it to do so.

Edited May 19, 2011 by mpc755

[swansont]

You cannot assume an aether exists in order to prove an aether exists. That's circular reasoning.

 

It looks like your claim is that the aether rotates with the earth. Is that correct, and true at all points on the earth? If not, please describe the variation — under what conditions will a clock feel no "aether force?"

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

It won't change where the Earth is located with respect to the Sun based on the distant stars.

Yes, it will.

[Light Storm]

Yes, it will.

 

That is a contradiction, not an argument

 

 

Time Dilation is completely dependant upon the perspective of the observer, and time it's self does not change.

 

If I attached a super bright pulsating light to myself and then broke all the laws of physics and spent 1 second flying 1 light year out into space

At that distance, my perspective of the earth would be from 1 year in the past, because that is the length of time it takes light to travel that distance

And then I spent another second flying back... the total time I've been gone is 2 seconds, I would not time travel into the future!

 

The time it would take you, 'to watch' (pulsating light) my trip out into space would be over 2 years

Time it's self would not, and can not change around me.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

If I attached a super bright pulsating light to myself and then broke all the laws of physics and spent 1 second flying 1 light year out into space

At that distance, my perspective of the earth would be from 1 year in the past, because that is the length of time it takes light to travel that distance

And then I spent another second flying back... the total time I've been gone is 2 seconds, I would not time travel into the future!

 

The time it would take you, 'to watch' (pulsating light) my trip out into space would be over 2 years

Time it's self would not, and can not change around me.

When you return to Earth, have the clocks on Earth recorded you having been gone for over two years, or for only two seconds?

[mooeypoo]

What I get from what he is saying is that from the perspective of the present, the changing numbers in the film-reel are memories and predictions, but that we have to synthesize those cognitively into an image of continuous moments. I don't think he will disagree about the utility of time in measuring defined changes, but from the perspective of any dynamic point in itself, there is only a continuous present. Extrapolating time from movement/change requires the ability to think "outside the present moment." I think this is what he's getting at, anyway, but I will be corrected if I put words in his mouth I'm sure.

 

Other than being an interesting philosophical point (which I tend to disagree with, but if we shall argue about it, it should go on its own thread in philosophy) how is it (a) helpful to reality at all? and (b) explain what we *see* happening?

 

We see time dilation, we check for it under various circumstances (not just a single experiment we put our trust in) and it's all been, so far, perfectly consistent with how we currently define time.

 

So, if an alternative definition is proposed, it should at the very LEAST explain the phenomena the current theory explains, and then propose further advantage.

 

Seems to me, the proposed idea not only doesn't explain anything, it's also practically useless. It cannot be used, gives no ability to predict or test upon. Why would we consider replacing a working theory that provides predictions that WORK with an idea that has nothing to predict, complicates our understanding and explains nothing?

 

~mooey

 

 

[mpc755]

Yes, it will.

Not physically in nature.

 

You cannot assume an aether exists in order to prove an aether exists. That's circular reasoning.

 

I don't assume an aether. I understand what is presently postulated as dark matter is aether.

 

If you look at the evidence of dark matter it is all more correctly understood as aether having mass. There are experiments which have detected ripples created when galaxy clusters collide. The ripples are created because the galaxy clusters are traveling with respect to the state of the aether. The moving galaxy clusters displace the aether. Their collision causes the displaced aether to form a ripple. There are experiments which detect an offset between the gravitational center of the 'dark matter' and the associated galaxy clusters. There is an offset because the galaxy clusters are moving with respect to the state of the aether and displace the aether. The offset is the state of displacement of the aether.

 

The Milky Way's halo is in the shape of a squished beach ball. The halo is the state of displacement of the aether surrounding the Milky Way. The displaced aether exerts force toward the Milky Way and this forces the matter which exists in the plane of the Milky Way toward the center of the Milky Way resulting in the displaced aether being in the form of a squished beach ball.

 

What is presently postulated as dark matter is aether. There is no such thing as dark matter traveling with matter. Matter moves with respect to the state of the aether. Aether has mass. Aether is physically displaced by matter. Displaced aether exerts force toward the matter. Force exerted toward matter by aether displaced by matter is gravity.

 

It looks like your claim is that the aether rotates with the earth. Is that correct, and true at all points on the earth?

Watch the following video from 1:45. The aether is in the same state with respect to the Earth connected to and neighboring the Earth.

 

If not, please describe the variation — under what conditions will a clock feel no "aether force?"

It is physically impossible for matter to not displace aether. Zero-point energy is the force exerted toward matter by aether displaced by matter.

Edited May 19, 2011 by mpc755

[Light Storm]

When you return to Earth, have the clocks on Earth recorded you having been gone for over two years, or for only two seconds?

 

 

IMO:

 

If I had a photon counting clock on me, and one on the ground at my start/end location

The clocks would reflect very different times when I return

The stationary clock on the ground will say I've been gone for 2 seconds

The clock on me will appear to have not even moved, it would have slowed pulse by over 1 year / second.

 

It would appear as though I was time traveling, but it would be a fault of the clocks.

 

I would have still aged 2 seconds in my travel, and my heart rate would still have beat about 2.4 times.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

I am explaining what occurs physically in nature to cause gravity and what occurs physically in nature in a double slit experiment.

 

When Einstein refers to the state of the ether as being determined by its connections with the matter and the state of the ether in neighboring places, I understand this to be the state of displacement of the aether.

Does your model make predictions identical to those of the mathematics of general relativity?

 

IMO:

 

If I had a photon counting clock on me, and one on the ground at my start/end location

The clocks would reflect very different times when I return

The stationary clock on the ground will say I've been gone for 2 seconds

The clock on me will appear to have not even moved, it would have slowed pulse by over 1 year / second.

 

It would appear as though I was time traveling, but it would be a fault of the clocks.

 

I would have still aged 2 seconds in my travel, and my heart rate would still have beat about 2.4 times.

How many times would the hearts of those on Earth have beat in the time you were gone?

[swansont]

It is physically impossible for matter to not displace aether. Zero-point energy is the force exerted toward matter by aether displaced by matter.

 

You claim that in the H-K experiment clocks going one way went against the aether flow and slowed down, and going the other way they went with the aether flow and sped up. Clocks on the earth's surface that were used for comparison did neither. Why not, if you can't escape the aether? I want you to explain how one predicts the effect on a clock based on where it is.

 

Watch the following video from 1:45. The aether is in the same state with respect to the Earth connected to and neighboring the Earth.

 

Which video?

[mpc755]

Does your model make predictions identical to those of the mathematics of general relativity?

My understanding of the train gedanken is different than Einstein's. If the embankment is at rest with respect to the aether then the train is moving with respect to the aether. If the Observer at A' notes the time and walks toward B' and then back to A' the clock the observer at A' takes with them will tick less times on the way to B' as it does on the way back to A' and the Observer at A' will be able to determine their state with respect to the state of the aether. I don't know what this means in terms of the math of general relativity.

 

You claim that in the H-K experiment clocks going one way went against the aether flow and slowed down, and going the other way they went with the aether flow and sped up. Clocks on the earth's surface that were used for comparison did neither. Why not, if you can't escape the aether? I want you to explain how one predicts the effect on a clock based on where it is.

The clock on the Earth exists in aether which is always in the same state. This is the same reason for the near-null result of the Michelson Morley experiment. The aether connected to and neighboring the Earth is always in the same state, or almost the same state, throughout the Earth's rotation about its axis and orbit of the Sun. The clocks being flown east and west in the H-K experiment exist in different states of aether and tick accordingly.

 

In terms of motion, the speed of a GPS satellite with respect to the aether causes it to displace more aether and for that aether to exert more force on the clock in the GPS satellite than the force of the aether associated with a clock at rest with respect to the Earth. This causes the GPS satellite clock to result in a delay of about 7 microseconds per day. The force of the aether associated with the aether displaced by the Earth exerts less force on the GPS satellite than a similar clock at rest on the Earth causing the GPS clocks to appear faster by about 45 microseconds per day. The force of the aether associated with the speed at which the GPS satellite moves with respect to the aether and the force of the aether associated with the aether displaced by the Earth causes clocks on the GPS satellites to tick approximately 38 microseconds per day faster than clocks on the ground.

 

Which video?

Watch from 1:45.

 

Edited May 19, 2011 by mpc755

[swansont]

The clock on the Earth exists in aether which is always in the same state. This is the same reason for the near-null result of the Michelson Morley experiment. The aether connected to and neighboring the Earth is always in the same state, or almost the same state, throughout the Earth's rotation about its axis and orbit of the Sun. The clocks being flown east and west in the H-K experiment exist in different states of aether and tick accordingly.

 

In terms of motion, the speed of a GPS satellite with respect to the aether causes it to displace more aether and for that aether to exert more force on the clock in the GPS satellite than the force of the aether associated with a clock at rest with respect to the Earth. This causes the GPS satellite clock to result in a delay of about 7 microseconds per day. The force of the aether associated with the aether displaced by the Earth exerts less force on the GPS satellite than a similar clock at rest on the Earth causing the GPS clocks to appear faster by about 45 microseconds per day. The force of the aether associated with the speed at which the GPS satellite moves with respect to the aether and the force of the aether associated with the aether displaced by the Earth causes clocks on the GPS satellites to tick approximately 38 microseconds per day faster than clocks on the ground.

 

"connected to and neighboring the Earth" — at what height does the variable aether effect kick in, the one that accounts for the 7 microseconds per day in GPS? And am I right in thinking that all clocks on or near the surface (as you will define) will be identically affected by the aether?

 

Watch from 1:45.

 

"Einstein was right, again." I can't fathom the connection this has to your aether theory.

[mpc755]

"connected to and neighboring the Earth" — at what height does the variable aether effect kick in, the one that accounts for the 7 microseconds per day in GPS?

The 7 microseconds is not dependent on the height. The 7 microseconds per day is determined by the force of the displaced aether exerted on and throughout the moving atomic clock as compared to another clock at rest with respect to the state of the aether. Both clocks exist in the same state of the aether, except for their motion, far away from the displaced aether effects of other objects.

And am I right in thinking that all clocks on or near the surface (as you will define) will be identically affected by the aether?

Yes.

 

"Einstein was right, again." I can't fathom the connection this has to your aether theory.

 

"According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable" - Albert Einstein

 

"the state of the [ether] is at every place determined by connections with the matter and the state of the ether in neighbouring places, ... disregarding the causes which condition its state."

 

The cause which conditions the state of the aether is its displacement by matter.

Edited May 19, 2011 by mpc755

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

My understanding of the train gedanken is different than Einstein's. If the embankment is at rest with respect to the aether then the train is moving with respect to the aether. If the Observer at A' notes the time and walks toward B' and then back to A' the clock the observer at A' takes with them will tick less times on the way to B' as it does on the way back to A' and the Observer at A' will be able to determine their state with respect to the state of the aether. I don't know what this means in terms of the math of general relativity.

 

What I mean is that general relativity makes predictions about the outcomes of experiments: what the clocks will say, what measurements will be taken, length contraction, and so on. Would your model make identical predictions, even if your understanding of the situation is different?

[mpc755]

What I mean is that general relativity makes predictions about the outcomes of experiments: what the clocks will say, what measurements will be taken, length contraction, and so on. Would your model make identical predictions, even if your understanding of the situation is different?

Not in terms of the twin gedanken. The twins are not going to age based on the rate the atomic clock they travel with ticks.

Edited May 19, 2011 by mpc755

[swansont]

The 7 microseconds is not dependent on the height. The 7 microseconds per day is determined by the force of the displaced aether exerted on and throughout the moving atomic clock as compared to another clock at rest with respect to the state of the aether. Both clocks exist in the same state of the aether, except for their motion, far away from the displaced aether effects of other objects.

 

Yes.

 

 

Then your theory is falsified. The effects of general relativity predict that the gravitational time dilation depend on height above the geoid, and these effects have been experimentally confirmed — clock frequency depends on elevation. These effects have been observed in height differences of about a meter, in fact.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/329/5999/1630.abstract

[mpc755]

Then your theory is falsified. The effects of general relativity predict that the gravitational time dilation depend on height above the geoid, and these effects have been experimentally confirmed — clock frequency depends on elevation. These effects have been observed in height differences of about a meter, in fact.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/329/5999/1630.abstract

You asked if the 7ms is height dependent. It is not. It is the motion component of the rate at which an atomic clock ticks.

 

http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html

 

"Because an observer on the ground sees the satellites in motion relative to them, Special Relativity predicts that we should see their clocks ticking more slowly (see the Special Relativity lecture). Special Relativity predicts that the on-board atomic clocks on the satellites should fall behind clocks on the ground by about 7 microseconds per day because of the slower ticking rate due to the time dilation effect of their relative motion. Further, the satellites are in orbits high above the Earth, where the curvature of spacetime due to the Earth's mass is less than it is at the Earth's surface. A prediction of General Relativity is that clocks closer to a massive object will seem to tick more slowly than those located further away (see the Black Holes lecture). As such, when viewed from the surface of the Earth, the clocks on the satellites appear to be ticking faster than identical clocks on the ground. A calculation using General Relativity predicts that the clocks in each GPS satellite should get ahead of ground-based clocks by 45 microseconds per day. The combination of these two relativitic effects means that the clocks on-board each satellite should tick faster than identical clocks on the ground by about 38 microseconds per day (45-7=38)!"

 

The 7 microseconds per day is special relativity aspect of determining the rate at which an atomic clock ticks. In aether displacement, all else being equal, the clock ticks slower in the GPS satellite because it is moving with respect to the aether while the other clock is at rest with respect to the aether.

 

What you are referring to in terms of elevation is the 45 microseconds per day the clock in the GPS ticks faster because there is less force exerted towards and throughout the clock by the aether which is displaced by the Earth than there is force exerted towards the clock on the ground by the aether displaced by the Earth.

 

There are two components associated with determining the rate at which a GPS satellite ticks. One is motion with respect to the state of the aether which causes displacement of the aether and the associated force exerted by the displaced aether towards and throughout the atomic clock and the other is force exerted towards and throughout the clock by the aether which is displaced by the Earth.

Edited May 20, 2011 by mpc755

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Not in terms of the twin gedanken. The twins are not going to age based on the rate the atomic clock they travel with ticks.

Why should the aether force effect the atomic clock tick -- which is caused by a very fundamental property of the atoms -- but not change how the atoms in the twins behave?

[swansont]

You asked if the 7ms is height dependent. It is not. It is the motion component of the rate at which an atomic clock ticks.

 

Sorry, my mistake on the number for GPS, but I asked you if the aether effects are height dependent, and you confirmed that clocks at or near the earth's surface feel the same effects. They do not. The GR effects are elevation-dependent, not altitude-dependent.

[mpc755]

Why should the aether force effect the atomic clock tick -- which is caused by a very fundamental property of the atoms -- but not change how the atoms in the twins behave?

The atoms in the twins are affected by the displaced aether. However, there is much more going on than this in terms of the twins. The twins are biological beings. If one twin is on a spaceship and the other is on the Earth there is much more going on than simply the rate at which an atomic clock ticks and the force of the aether which causes the clocks to tick at the rate at which they do which is going to affect the rate at which the twins age.

 

The main point being, it is not time which is changing. Yes the individual atoms in each twin are affected by the force of the aether which each exists in. However, this is only going to be a very small percentage of what determines how the twins age. Time has not changed for either twin. The twins are not going to age at the rate their atomic clocks tick because the rate at which the atomic clocks tick has nothing to do with time. It is a physical process.

 

You have two battery operated clocks. You throw one battery operated clock into a pool with one of the twins. The battery operated clock in the pool ticks at half the rate the clock on the deck does. Does the twin in the pool age at the rate at which the battery operated clock in the pool ticks? Of course not. You understand what is occurring physically in nature to cause the battery operated clock to tick slower. It has nothing to do with time. It is silly to even think the rate at which the battery operated clock in the pool ticks is associated with the age at which the twin in the pool ages simply because they are both wet.

 

Sorry, my mistake on the number for GPS, but I asked you if the aether effects are height dependent, and you confirmed that clocks at or near the earth's surface feel the same effects. They do not. The GR effects are elevation-dependent, not altitude-dependent.

What I was referring to is the distance the atomic clock is from the center of the Earth. The further you get from the center of the Earth the less the aether is displaced by the Earth. The aether displaced by the Earth exerts less force towards and throughout the Sun than it does the Moon.

Edited May 20, 2011 by mpc755

[Light Storm]

How many times would the hearts of those on Earth have beat in the time you were gone?

 

Here is a better question

 

In my extremist alternate reality where anything goes, you decide to watch me on my path from the moon

 

You pull out your stop watch

 

I travel by you at 10 trillion kilometres per second (1 light year)

 

You stop your watch at the end of second 2, I'm back at my starting position.

 

Did I appear to by moving in slow motion?

 

How many times would have your heart beat in the time I was gone?

[swansont]

What I was referring to is the distance the atomic clock is from the center of the Earth. The further you get from the center of the Earth the less the aether is displaced by the Earth. The aether displaced by the Earth exerts less force towards and throughout the Sun than it does the Moon.

 

So when you said surface, that was wrong? What is the pattern of the variation? Is it 1/r, 1/r^2 or does it change in some other way? Does it vary more strongly inside the earth (or other matter) than it does in the atmosphere and in space?

[mpc755]

So when you said surface, that was wrong? What is the pattern of the variation? Is it 1/r, 1/r^2 or does it change in some other way? Does it vary more strongly inside the earth (or other matter) than it does in the atmosphere and in space?

When I said surface, I was thinking clocks at the same distance from the center of the Earth. I was thinking sea level. At the time, since you were confusing the 7 microseconds per day with height I didn't see any reason to have to specify it more clearly since it was obvious you had no idea what you were talking about.

 

The further from the center of the Earth you get the less aether there is displaced by the Earth which is exerting force back toward the Earth. As you get deeper below the surface of the Earth there is more aether displaced by the matter which is the Earth which is exerting force back towards the Earth. The analogy is deep sea diving. The deeper below the surface of the water you get the greater the pressure exerted towards the submarine. Now, if that submarine consisted of millions of tiny marbles separated by springs that force would be exerted throughout the submarine and the deeper the submarine dove the greater the force exerted toward it and throughout it.

Edited May 20, 2011 by mpc755

[swansont]

When I said surface, I was thinking clocks at the same distance from the center of the Earth. I was thinking sea level. At the time, since you were confusing the 7 microseconds per day with height I didn't see any reason to have to specify it more clearly since it was obvious you had no idea what you were talking about.

 

The further from the center of the Earth you get the less aether there is displaced by the Earth which is exerting force back toward the Earth. As you get deeper below the surface of the Earth there is more aether displaced by the matter which is the Earth which is exerting force back towards the Earth. The analogy is deep sea diving. The deeper below the surface of the water you get the greater the pressure exerted towards the submarine. Now, if that submarine consisted of millions of tiny marbles separated by springs that force would be exerted throughout the submarine and the deeper the submarine dove the greater the force exerted toward it and throughout it.

 

The center of the earth displaces more aether? What is the function that describes the variation? Why does a chunk of material at the center of the earth displace more aether than at the surface — what does this depend on? Does a cubic meter of atmosphere displace as much aether as a cubic chunk of granite, at the same location?

[mpc755]

The center of the earth displaces more aether? What is the function that describes the variation? Why does a chunk of material at the center of the earth displace more aether than at the surface — what does this depend on? Does a cubic meter of atmosphere displace as much aether as a cubic chunk of granite, at the same location?

Aether is displaced based on matter per volume. The more matter there is per volume the less aether it contains the more aether it displaces. There is the gas giant Jupiter and a Jupiter made of lead. They both have the same volume. The lead Jupiter contains more matter per volume and displaces more aether than the gas Jupiter.

 

It's not that the center of the Earth displaces more aether. It is that there is more displaced aether overall exerting force towards the center of the Earth. The Earth displaces the aether far past the moon. All of this displaced aether is exerting force towards the Earth. If you are a mile below sea level there is a mile more of displaced aether exerting force towards you than when you are at sea level. When you climb to a mountain top there is less displaced aether exerting force towards you than when you were at sea level.

 

Back to the water analogy. You dive into the ocean. You dive a few feet down. There are a few feet of water exerting pressure towards you. You dive deeper. There is more water exerting pressure towards you. You dive miles deep. There is now miles of ocean exerting force towards you. Think of all of the water as being displaced by the ocean floor. There is a crevas on the ocean floor. You dive deep into the crevas. The deeper you dive into the crevas the greater the pressure exerted by the displaced water towards you.

Edited May 20, 2011 by mpc755