dating for the short or medium term

[lemur]

This topic might be an interesting spin-off of the prostitution/pornography thread. What are the ethics of dating when you know that your partner doesn't fulfill all your expectations/wishes for someone you would want to declare your partner for life? E.g. say you have a certain hobby that you love, like fishing, and you find someone you really like but who hates fishing. What are the ethics of dating that person with the knowledge that if you ever meet anyone else with potential who also likes fishing, you would be happier with that person? Is it unethical to set someone up for rejection if you know there's a potential for future rejection in a relationship?

[mooeypoo]

I don't know that I see the comparison? I mean, prostitution is for sex-only. No emotional attachment; not even first-names, really. It's a one-time sexual encounter, and nothing more.

 

Dating - short or medium or long-term - involves getting to know one another and mixing emotions in. Even if you know that you're dating without the desire to "settle down" or something, the mere idea that you're taking the time to spend time with someone else other than just the sex of it (even if sex is PART of the interaction) makes it completely different than prostitution.

 

How's it anywhere similar?

 

 

 

Relationships depend on communication. If you communicate your desires and the fact that you don't know (or know that you don't want) a long-term relationship, it's not unethical. If you lead your partner on, then it doesn't really matter what you lead them on with or on what subject, really, does it? Emotional fraud is fraud whether the relationship is long or short.

 

If you're open about the fact that your partner's hatred for fishing means you will not marry, and despite this honest revelation your partner still desires your company, then I don't see it as immoral.

 

If you lie, then it's immoral for the lie of it.

[lemur]

Dating - short or medium or long-term - involves getting to know one another and mixing emotions in. Even if you know that you're dating without the desire to "settle down" or something, the mere idea that you're taking the time to spend time with someone else other than just the sex of it (even if sex is PART of the interaction) makes it completely different than prostitution.

 

How's it anywhere similar?

I wasn't saying it was similar. I was saying more that these are all parts of the same underlying desire for human relations beyond pure intellect. I don't know how else to explain it. If we were talking psychology, I think you'd immediately understand that dating and sex are related libidinal desires even when sex isn't the prime purpose of dating. It has to do with libidinal satisfaction, which doesn't necessarily entail (only) sexual gratification or sexual gratification at all.

 

If you're open about the fact that your partner's hatred for fishing means you will not marry, and despite this honest revelation your partner still desires your company, then I don't see it as immoral.

 

If you lie, then it's immoral for the lie of it.

But wouldn't you both really be lying to yourselves and each other if you entered into a potentially heart-breaking situation by ignoring the likelihood that whatever emotional bond you build up will be violently broken at the moment a good fishing-partner comes along?

 

 

[mooeypoo]

I wasn't saying it was similar. I was saying more that these are all parts of the same underlying desire for human relations beyond pure intellect. I don't know how else to explain it. If we were talking psychology, I think you'd immediately understand that dating and sex are related libidinal desires even when sex isn't the prime purpose of dating. It has to do with libidinal satisfaction, which doesn't necessarily entail (only) sexual gratification or sexual gratification at all.

Yes, but dating delivers entirely different satisfactions than just sex. Also, sex with someone you know (as in, intimacy and not just pure act of "sex") can feel ever more fulfilling than just the act itself. That's what I mean when I separated the two; I see what you're saying, I just think the comparison between short-term dating and prostitution (in your sub topic) is very out-there.

 

But wouldn't you both really be lying to yourselves and each other if you entered into a potentially heart-breaking situation by ignoring the likelihood that whatever emotional bond you build up will be violently broken at the moment a good fishing-partner comes along?

 

Why lying? Heartbreak could also come if you both have intention to stay with one another and then, eventually, things just don't work out. If you're honest in your expectations, and for the both of you it's a comfortable arrangement - to be a 'this is good for now' sort of thing, then I see no problem with it.

 

What I see more often is when people are NOT honest with one another - one person expects more than the other - and that can lead to a lot of problems and to heartbreak. But if both people know it? I see no problem with it. Of course, cheating is cheating; if you're in a relationship and your "deal" is to be exclusive (even as a "it's not forever" thing) then you should not go off with another person without first ending things with your current partner.

 

But again we go back to communication and honesty. If all sides are honest, there are many more successful "arrangements" and relationship types than the 'regular' monogamy we seem to define as the "norm" in our society.

 

~mooey

[lemur]

Yes, but dating delivers entirely different satisfactions than just sex. Also, sex with someone you know (as in, intimacy and not just pure act of "sex") can feel ever more fulfilling than just the act itself. That's what I mean when I separated the two; I see what you're saying, I just think the comparison between short-term dating and prostitution (in your sub topic) is very out-there.

Where did you get that I was comparing short-term dating with prostitution? Because I introduced the thread topic with reference to the thread on pornography/prostitution? That was just a humorous way of suggesting that there are other directions to channel one's libidinal energies in than prostitution/pornography.

 

Why lying? Heartbreak could also come if you both have intention to stay with one another and then, eventually, things just don't work out. If you're honest in your expectations, and for the both of you it's a comfortable arrangement - to be a 'this is good for now' sort of thing, then I see no problem with it.

You make it sound so painless to break up. "Owner of a lonely heart = much better than the owner of a broken heart" - yes it's Yes.

 

What I see more often is when people are NOT honest with one another - one person expects more than the other - and that can lead to a lot of problems and to heartbreak. But if both people know it? I see no problem with it. Of course, cheating is cheating; if you're in a relationship and your "deal" is to be exclusive (even as a "it's not forever" thing) then you should not go off with another person without first ending things with your current partner.

Cheating is another issue altogether. But don't you think it's just as painful to get dumped because someone else meets someone that they haven't cheated with yet but want to date? Besides that, what are the chances really that once you're in a comfortable relationship with someone you get along with reasonably well that you're going to care enough about fishing or whatever to break it off to start something new with someone who might turn out to be incompatible in other ways than the fishing? Realistically, in dating possession is 9/10 of the law until the relationship is falling apart on its own, no?

 

But again we go back to communication and honesty. If all sides are honest, there are many more successful "arrangements" and relationship types than the 'regular' monogamy we seem to define as the "norm" in our society.

I'm only familiar with those in theory. As far as I know, everyone who does that in practice keeps it a secret.

 

 

[mooeypoo]

Where did you get that I was comparing short-term dating with prostitution? Because I introduced the thread topic with reference to the thread on pornography/prostitution? That was just a humorous way of suggesting that there are other directions to channel one's libidinal energies in than prostitution/pornography.

The subtitle of this thread is "More ethical than prostitution?" to which I answered.... I understand this isn't the FOCUS of your question, but I thought it was quite a relatively extreme statement and felt I should answer it.

 

You seemed to make it your 'topic' by making the subline that question... or at least that's what it seemed like? What did you mean by that subline question, then?

 

You make it sound so painless to break up. "Owner of a lonely heart = much better than the owner of a broken heart" - yes it's Yes.

It's not painless to break up, but break ups happen to people who DO plan to stay their lives together, too, so my point is that in *that* aspet, there's not a lot of difference between them.

 

If people are honest in their intentions, I don't see anything wrong with different types of relationships than the "common" ones. I have a friend, for instance, who believes in honest polygamy. I, *personally*, don't see myself in one of those types of relationships, and I don't quite see how it can work without encouraging a substantial amount of jealousy. That said, I know a person who lives his life like that -- openly -- and is very happy; along with his multiple relationships. They are all honest with one another and know they share their love around. I don't get it. But I respect it, and I wouldn't call it unethical.

 

So I'm trying to say that if you and your partner are both honest in your intentions, the relationship is not unethical. If you don't know where you are in terms of continuing the relationship, and your partner knows it and stays with you anyways, that's not unethical. If you lie, however, and lead them on, then you're being unethical.

 

I hope this made my point a bit clearer?

 

Cheating is another issue altogether. But don't you think it's just as painful to get dumped because someone else meets someone that they haven't cheated with yet but want to date? Besides that, what are the chances really that once you're in a comfortable relationship with someone you get along with reasonably well that you're going to care enough about fishing or whatever to break it off to start something new with someone who might turn out to be incompatible in other ways than the fishing? Realistically, in dating possession is 9/10 of the law until the relationship is falling apart on its own, no?

I think you're mixing scenarios, though.

 

Your first post was more about short-term dating; that's different than being dumped because your partner met someone else. Short term dating can simply mean that you don't see yourself marrying that person. If you or your partner at any time think they might have found someone else, then the honesty should continue and the relationship should end. It might hurt, but that doesn't make it unethical. You didn't *plan* to hurt the person in advance, things happen. But if your partner knew it MIGHT happen (as in, you were honest in saying you DON'T see yourself marrying them, and this isn't long-term) then it probably will hurt less. It will also, in my opinion, not be unethical.

 

 

I'm only familiar with those in theory. As far as I know, everyone who does that in practice keeps it a secret.

 

That's strictly due to social misconceptions. I do know of some people who practice a few alternative types of marriage arrangements, and they're very happy. The fact they're not publicizing their "uncommon" arrangement (that usually gets criticism from society, much like many other "uncommon" things do.)

That doesn't mean that the people involved are suffering or are being unethical.

 

For that matter, some sexual fantasies are misunderstood in society, so people perform them in secret. That doesn't make those acts unethical. Quite honestly, it's no one's business; same goes with relationship types - if you and your partner decided something fits both your needs, and you are honest (so there's no INTENTION to hurt anyone's feelings) I don't quite see it as unethical.

 

~mooey

[lemur]

The subtitle of this thread is "More ethical than prostitution?" to which I answered.... I understand this isn't the FOCUS of your question, but I thought it was quite a relatively extreme statement and felt I should answer it.

 

You seemed to make it your 'topic' by making the subline that question... or at least that's what it seemed like? What did you mean by that subline question, then?

I meant that if you are knowingly entering into a temporary relationship for the purpose of self-gratification without concern for the other person after the relationship has been terminated, it doesn't seem much different than a business arrangement. I guess the problem is that it still hasn't been resolved what's unethical about prostitution in the first place. If two (or more) people want to do business by exchanging sex for something else, that's legitimate some on this forum would say. Nevertheless, feminists and others have criticized prostitution and other heterosexual relationships involving domination and exploitation in other ways as being ethically problematic, so the question is really whether there's even any reasonable basis for having any ethics regarding sexuality at all and, if so, what basis is there for claiming that some sexual/relationship practices are more ethical than others?

 

It's not painless to break up, but break ups happen to people who DO plan to stay their lives together, too, so my point is that in *that* aspet, there's not a lot of difference between them.

Personally, the only logic I can see in calling breakups ethically problematic is that people get their feelings hurt. There are other issues when kids are involved too of course. The question is when the pain/damage of breakup is worth the reward. Obviously the person wanting to breakup is always going to view the reward as worth the cost, and they will always plea their case for breaking up at a level that overshadows the damage of doing so. People not only fight for freedom but they fight to legitimate it as well.

 

They are all honest with one another and know they share their love around. I don't get it. But I respect it, and I wouldn't call it unethical.

Would you have a problem with it, then, if the government suddenly legalized polygamy and it became all but impossible for you to get married monogamously? Do you think there's any basis for arguing the ethical legitimacy of one form of relationship over another, such as when the new testament argues that celibacy is ideal, but monogamous marriage is the next best thing, and divorce can be forgiven but not sought be believers? Do you at least see that there is some logic in the ethical reasoning behind that? Likewise there is ethical reasoning in allowing polygamy as a means for men to take responsibility for their polyamory. Although moral reasoning can conflict, I don't see that as abandoning it to moral/cultural relativism.

 

So I'm trying to say that if you and your partner are both honest in your intentions, the relationship is not unethical. If you don't know where you are in terms of continuing the relationship, and your partner knows it and stays with you anyways, that's not unethical. If you lie, however, and lead them on, then you're being unethical.

That's true but what if the person is just going along with it because that's the only way they can keep you? Isn't this a bit like a woman who accepts her bf beating her up because she thinks he will be nicer to her if she accepts the abuse? That's an extreme example, but the point is that even if someone lets you abuse them consensually, does that make it ethical to do so?

 

Your first post was more about short-term dating; that's different than being dumped because your partner met someone else. Short term dating can simply mean that you don't see yourself marrying that person. If you or your partner at any time think they might have found someone else, then the honesty should continue and the relationship should end. It might hurt, but that doesn't make it unethical. You didn't *plan* to hurt the person in advance, things happen. But if your partner knew it MIGHT happen (as in, you were honest in saying you DON'T see yourself marrying them, and this isn't long-term) then it probably will hurt less. It will also, in my opinion, not be unethical.

But what if you break up with that person, as planned, marry your ideal spouse and then that person never meets theirs? Wouldn't you ever question whether they got the short end of the deal?

 

That's strictly due to social misconceptions. I do know of some people who practice a few alternative types of marriage arrangements, and they're very happy. The fact they're not publicizing their "uncommon" arrangement (that usually gets criticism from society, much like many other "uncommon" things do.) That doesn't mean that the people involved are suffering or are being unethical.

 

For that matter, some sexual fantasies are misunderstood in society, so people perform them in secret. That doesn't make those acts unethical. Quite honestly, it's no one's business; same goes with relationship types - if you and your partner decided something fits both your needs, and you are honest (so there's no INTENTION to hurt anyone's feelings) I don't quite see it as unethical.

Sexual secrecy is a topic I find very interesting. I find it terribly oppressive to have to keep something secret and it makes me feel like a criminal. There's a good song about this by Alanis Morissette, actually. I think this is actually the reason people search for the legitimacy and ethics of things, i.e. so that they do not have to hide their lives in the shadows. Don't Ask Don't Tell is about this same issue as well, isn't?

 

 

[Guest lab_supplies]

Is it unethical to set someone up for rejection if you know there's a potential for future rejection in a relationship?

I think it depends on if there is potential for future rejection or it is definite that there will be future rejection. As you date you will learn more about the person and feelings might get stronger or weaker. Don't break up if you think it might not work, try it out and break up if it doesn't work out.