forgiveness

[lemur]

(split from another thread):

In practice, there are people who call themselves 'Christian' who wield shame and unforgiveness and judge just as their are non-Christians who forgive and refuse to judge. Really, this topic deserves its own thread because you can get into all sorts of topics such as how to forgive without legitimating sin and how things like anti-Semitic persecution have been caused by Christians who blamed and refused to forgive Jews for the crucifixion. I have to admit I've also wondered if Judaism also teaches forgiveness.

[Greatest I am]

(split from another thread):

In practice, there are people who call themselves 'Christian' who wield shame and unforgiveness and judge just as their are non-Christians who forgive and refuse to judge. Really, this topic deserves its own thread because you can get into all sorts of topics such as how to forgive without legitimating sin and how things like anti-Semitic persecution have been caused by Christians who blamed and refused to forgive Jews for the crucifixion. I have to admit I've also wondered if Judaism also teaches forgiveness.

 

 

Jews seem to forgive more than Christians do in all areas except murder. Murder is when the community exacts justice for the victim.

 

Jews seem to believe that man sins against man and not against God and that it is to man to forgive and not God.

 

I tend to agree with them.

 

 

Christians seem to hate too much to be a forgiving lot.

They invented hell to make sure no forgiveness could ever reach those not of their tribe.

Too much tribalism I guess.

 

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

[lemur]

Jews seem to forgive more than Christians do in all areas except murder. Murder is when the community exacts justice for the victim.

 

Jews seem to believe that man sins against man and not against God and that it is to man to forgive and not God.

 

I tend to agree with them.

 

 

Christians seem to hate too much to be a forgiving lot.

They invented hell to make sure no forgiveness could ever reach those not of their tribe.

Too much tribalism I guess.

You're generalizing about Christians (and Jews) and you're failing to acknowledge that Christians aren't perfect Christians.

 

As for putting forgiveness in human hands, that allows people to put conditions on forgiveness and exploit those who have sinned against them. God's forgiveness empowers people to help others but not by elevating their authority to the status of slave-holder.

 

Christianity isn't a tribe, or at least it shouldn't be. Anyone can become Christian by reading the scripture and accepting the salvation and the teachings. The greatest Christians, including Jesus himself, were church-rebels. Christians do not have a monopoly on hell. If any religion promised unconditional bliss regardless of behavior, there would be no incentive to practice the teachings. Christianity comes closest to getting everyone to heaven by putting forgiveness for sin/blunder within everyone's direct reach, i.e. without having to satisfy anyone else's criteria. In Christianity, you can seek forgiveness directly from God and attain eternal peace that way. People just have to be taught how through the stories/teachings of Jesus because otherwise they don't have any faith in forgiveness except from the imperfect humans they've sinned against.

 

 

[Greatest I am]

You're generalizing about Christians (and Jews) and you're failing to acknowledge that Christians aren't perfect Christians.

 

As for putting forgiveness in human hands, that allows people to put conditions on forgiveness and exploit those who have sinned against them. God's forgiveness empowers people to help others but not by elevating their authority to the status of slave-holder.

 

Christianity isn't a tribe, or at least it shouldn't be. Anyone can become Christian by reading the scripture and accepting the salvation and the teachings. The greatest Christians, including Jesus himself, were church-rebels. Christians do not have a monopoly on hell. If any religion promised unconditional bliss regardless of behavior, there would be no incentive to practice the teachings. Christianity comes closest to getting everyone to heaven by putting forgiveness for sin/blunder within everyone's direct reach, i.e. without having to satisfy anyone else's criteria.

 

 

 

 

I cannot believe you said this last idiocy.

 

I guess you have forgotten that God could only save 8 souls out of the millions of Noah’s day whom God murdered with genocide.

Even innocent children and babies were corrupt by God's misguided standards.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3LNL6wKhXA

 

You want to hate others so much and make them suffer that you forget that a God would rather cure those he thinks defective rather than kill them of sake them suffer torture and burning forever without purpose.

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

[Light Storm]

I cannot believe you said this last idiocy.

 

I guess you have forgotten that God could only save 8 souls out of the millions of Noah's day whom God murdered with genocide.

Even innocent children and babies were corrupt by God's misguided standards.

You want to hate others so much and make them suffer that you forget that a God would rather cure those he thinks defective rather than kill them of sake them suffer torture and burning forever without purpose.

 

Most Christians prefer the lies about Jesus in the new testimate over the lies in the old testimate which where pretty much made up by Moses.

 

 

 

[lemur]

Most Christians prefer the lies about Jesus in the new testimate over the lies in the old testimate which where pretty much made up by Moses.

Calling culture "lies" implies that there is a truer culture that demonstrates the deceit of the 'lies.' Care to explain what that truth is and which "lies" are deceitful in contrast?

[Realitycheck]

It's all about motives. The Jews were sitting around the campfire, drinking up a storm (I could be a bit misinformed on the drinking part, but we know that at least some people were drinking that far back), competing with each other to see who could tell the grandest, most noble tall tales. While the Disciples had to come up with their own stories in order to assert their own dominance, because, let's face it. It was war, a war of ideology at the very least, right?

 

Just think about it. What is mythology at its base? It's the overblown exaggeration of actual events. And don't forget the Gossip Rule of Mythology - that any story loses half of its original value with every person that it goes through, especially when people are trying to assert philosophical or meaningful dominance.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Realitycheck

[Brainteaserfan]

It's all about motives. The Jews were sitting around the campfire, drinking up a storm (I could be a bit misinformed on the drinking part, but we know that at least some people were drinking that far back), competing with each other to see who could tell the grandest, most noble tall tales. While the Disciples had to come up with their own stories in order to assert their own dominance, because, let's face it. It was war, a war of ideology at the very least, right?

 

Just think about it. What is mythology at its base? It's the overblown exaggeration of actual events. And don't forget the Gossip Rule of Mythology - that any story loses half of its original value with every person that it goes through, especially when people are trying to assert philosophical or meaningful dominance.

Alright, I know I've said this in other threads, but most people wouldn't give their lives for a tall tale as 11/12 disciples did.

 

As for the topic, I'm not a Jew, but yes, The Jewish faith does teach forgiveness. Source: http://www.thepowerofforgiveness.com/pdf/A_Jewish_Perspective_on_Forgiveness.pdf at the bottom of pg 2 esp.