Ophiolite Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 It doesn't matter if it is image or matter. Anything that has an image is matter. You don't think the Biblical passage is metaphorical? You think that a people with a rich tradition of imagery in their language chose this particular instance to completely literal? Those are interesting thoughts, but they seem quite unrealistic. It seems to me much more likley that the passage speaks of the spiritual characterisitcs of God. As far as I am aware compassion, love, hate, enthusiasm, concern, none of these things are made of matter. Perhaps you think they don't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinW Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 The comparison is, IMO, false. Just because one accepts the possibility of biological life on one of the other countless trillions and trillions and trillions of worlds out there as a plausible possibility... does not mean they are being somehow hypocritical for not accepting the possibility of an ethereal omnipresent sky dictator who controls absolutely everything, convicts you of thought crimes, wants you to worship him, and tells you not to eat fish on Fridays. When put that way it makes a little more sense. I was thinking more strongly about those who believe in the infinite multiverse theory, but even then when looked at from your point of view makes more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgsboi Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 As far as I am aware compassion, love, hate, enthusiasm, concern, none of these things are made of matter. Perhaps you think they don't exist. How do you think they are causes? There are a number of "neurotransmitters", or chemicals in the brain that perform different functions and carry impulses from one part of the brain to the other. Some of these include serotonin, dopamine, acetylcholine, epinephrine, norepinephrine, GABA, etc. The way they work is complex and can't be limited to just causing happiness or sadness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotransmitters http://answers.yahoo...16103632AAbMBe5 You don't think the Biblical passage is metaphorical? Well it seemed "God's only son", Jesus was made of matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) It doesn't matter if it is image or matter. Anything that has an image is matter. There are several definitions of 'image'. Do you really think the bible was more likely referring to 'the passage of luminous rays through a small aperature' or a 'sculpture', rather than an 'idea' or 'conception'? 1. a physical likeness or representation of a person, animal, or thing, photographed, painted, sculptured, or otherwise made visible. 2. an optical counterpart or appearance of an object, as is produced by reflection from a mirror, refraction by a lens, or the passage of luminous rays through a small aperture and their reception on a surface. 3. a mental representation; idea; conception. 4. Psychology . a mental representation of something previously perceived, in the absence of the original stimulus. 5. form; appearance; semblance: We are all created in God's image. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/image Edited February 9, 2012 by zapatos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgsboi Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) 1. a physical likeness or representation of a person, animal, or thing, photographed, painted, sculptured, or otherwise made visible. 2. an optical counterpart or appearance of an object, as is produced by reflection from a mirror, refraction by a lens, or the passage of luminous rays through a small aperture and their reception on a surface. 3. a mental representation; idea; conception. 4. Psychology . a mental representation of something previously perceived, in the absence of the original stimulus. 5. form; appearance; semblance: We are all created in God's image. http://dictionary.re...om/browse/image What you have put there is either saying that God is matter or God is just something made up in your head. *Edit* Picture God in your head and tell me what he's made from. Edited February 9, 2012 by morgsboi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 What you have put there is either saying that God is matter or God is just something made up in your head. *Edit* Picture God in your head and tell me what he's made from. Okay, let me try. Hmmm. He is made of pixie dust and cherub burps. If God exists, how could you possibly know what he is made of? It is not within the realm of science. You are using the bible to make a scientific prediction of the composition of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgsboi Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Okay, let me try. Hmmm. He is made of pixie dust and cherub burps. If God exists, how could you possibly know what he is made of? It is not within the realm of science. You are using the bible to make a scientific prediction of the composition of God. I am actually atheist myself but if God isn't made from matter, he must just be in our heads. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I am actually atheist myself but if God isn't made from matter, he must just be in our heads. Please correct me if I'm wrong. You may be right but you have not shown it to be true. What logical steps did you take to get from IF not matter, THEN in our heads? I could just as easily say if God isn't made from matter, then he is made of deity dust. It is not true just because I say it. If God exists, then he could be composed of something that is not matter but of a substance not of this universe. Since he is supernatural we have no way to make a definitive statement. Or he could be made of matter. But how could I possibly know? I can't do a test on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgsboi Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 You may be right but you have not shown it to be true. What logical steps did you take to get from IF not matter, THEN in our heads? I could just as easily say if God isn't made from matter, then he is made of deity dust. It is not true just because I say it. If God exists, then he could be composed of something that is not matter but of a substance not of this universe. Since he is supernatural we have no way to make a definitive statement. Or he could be made of matter. But how could I possibly know? I can't do a test on him. Because he can only be matter or in our heads. Please tell me........ what else could a god be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Because he can only be matter or in our heads. Please tell me........ what else could a god be? Deity dust, pixie dust, cherub burps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgsboi Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Deity dust, pixie dust, cherub burps. Maybe a more mature answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Maybe a more mature answer? This is not about maturity. It is about logic. Please tell me how you came to the conclusion that your answer is better than mine. And if you are going to use the bible as proof, please tell me how that is a good reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgsboi Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 This is not about maturity. It is about logic. Please tell me how you came to the conclusion that your answer is better than mine. And if you are going to use the bible as proof, please tell me how that is a good reference. I'm not using the bible as proof! To me a bible isn't proof of anything and I'm using it so I can put my answers in an understandable context for Christians. I'm using logic. Please tell me how anything could exist if it isn't matter or energy!? I'm not talking about spirits and x th dimensions. I'm asking you to explain why you think that if there is a god........ why do you think he isn't made from matter? Also, what is with the bad rep for asking for a sensible answer? Deity dust, pixie dust, cherub burps. How accurate do you think those things are? And also.......... they are all matter. Surprise! Surprise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiggerj Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 You may be right but you have not shown it to be true. What logical steps did you take to get from IF not matter, THEN in our heads? I could just as easily say if God isn't made from matter, then he is made of deity dust. It is not true just because I say it. If God exists, then he could be composed of something that is not matter but of a substance not of this universe. Since he is supernatural we have no way to make a definitive statement. Or he could be made of matter. But how could I possibly know? I can't do a test on him. Hi, just want to point out that a "substance not of this universe" is still matter. Also, can you define 'supernatural' in a way that doesn't involve energy? If there be ghosts, then even they would be made of some form of energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I'm not using the bible as proof! To me a bible isn't proof of anything and I'm using it so I can put my answers in an understandable context for Christians. I'm using logic. Please tell me how anything could exist if it isn't matter or energy!? I'm not talking about spirits and x th dimensions. I'm asking you to explain why you think that if there is a god........ why do you think he isn't made from matter? Also, what is with the bad rep for asking for a sensible answer? [/size] How accurate do you think those things are? And also.......... they are all matter. Surprise! Surprise! SUPERNATURAL 1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil 2a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/supernatural If God exists he is supernatural. Beyond the visible universe. Trancending the laws of nature. Therefore it is not possible to conclude that he is matter, energy, or just in the human imagination. He could be something else. Since he is not of this universe and transcends the laws of nature he could be composed of something that we have no concept of, that is not matter or energy. We do not know. We will never know. As far as we know there may be something called deity dust that is not made of matter. why do you think he isn't made from matter You need to read the words I am writing. I never said he wasn't made of matter. I said we have no way of knowing if he is made of matter or not. I'm not talking about spirits and x th dimensions. You are talking about spirits and the xth dimension if you are talking about God. Also, what is with the bad rep for asking for a sensible answer? I have no idea why you received a negative rep. Possibly for calling me immature when I am trying to explain my position to you. How accurate do you think those things are? And also.......... they are all matter. Surprise! Surprise! This illustrates the point I am trying to make about your misconception. Please provide any evidence whatsoever that pixie dust exists, much less that it is, as you claim, made of matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgsboi Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 SUPERNATURAL 1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil 2a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature http://www.merriam-w...ry/supernatural If God exists he is supernatural. Beyond the visible universe. Trancending the laws of nature. Therefore it is not possible to conclude that he is matter, energy, or just in the human imagination. He could be something else. Since he is not of this universe and transcends the laws of nature he could be composed of something that we have no concept of, that is not matter or energy. We do not know. We will never know. As far as we know there may be something called deity dust that is not made of matter. You need to read the words I am writing. I never said he wasn't made of matter. I said we have no way of knowing if he is made of matter or not. You are talking about spirits and the xth dimension if you are talking about God. I have no idea why you received a negative rep. Possibly for calling me immature when I am trying to explain my position to you. This illustrates the point I am trying to make about your misconception. Please provide any evidence whatsoever that pixie dust exists, much less that it is, as you claim, made of matter. Lets put it this way. If it isn't matter then it doesn't exist. P.S You were being immature. Hi, just want to point out that a "substance not of this universe" is still matter. Also, can you define 'supernatural' in a way that doesn't involve energy? If there be ghosts, then even they would be made of some form of energy. Thank you I totally agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 How accurate do you think those things are? And also.......... they are all matter. Surprise! Surprise! Please provide some evidence to support this assertion. Hi, just want to point out that a "substance not of this universe" is still matter. Also, can you define 'supernatural' in a way that doesn't involve energy? If there be ghosts, then even they would be made of some form of energy. Please provide some evidence to support this assertion. If it isn't matter then it doesn't exist. Please provide some evidence to support this assertion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgsboi Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Please provide some evidence to support this assertion. I would be more than happy. First one: My evidence is that dust and burps are matter. I suggest you think more carefully about the question you write as that was just pointless. Second one: Well actually Jiggerj asked you to define it but the evidence to support it is a little something called [math]E=MC^2[/math] !! Third one: [math]E=MC^2[/math] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiggerj Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I would be more than happy. First one: My evidence is that dust and burps are matter. I suggest you think more carefully about the question you write as that was just pointless. Second one: Well actually Jiggerj asked you to define it but the evidence to support it is a little something called [math]E=MC^2[/math] !! Third one: [math]E=MC^2[/math] LOL Let me also add: mat·ter/ˈmatər/ Noun:Physical substance in general, as distinct from mind and spirit; (in physics) that which occupies space and possesses rest mass If God exists he is supernatural. Beyond the visible universe. Trancending the laws of nature. Therefore it is not possible to conclude that he is matter, energy, or just in the human imagination. He could be something else. Since he is not of this universe and transcends the laws of nature he could be composed of something that we have no concept of, that is not matter or energy. We do not know. We will never know. As far as we know there may be something called deity dust that is not made of matter. This is where the catholic bible limits the possibilities of what this god could be. Remember, this bible says that god made man in his image. So, this god would be humanoid in appearance, and that takes matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zapatos Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I surrender. Your two intellects are just too much for me to compete against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 As far as I am aware compassion' date=' love, hate, enthusiasm, concern, none of these things are made of matter. Perhaps you think they don't exist.[/quote']How do you think they are causes? Do you mean 'why do I think they are causes'? At any rate, I have made no claim that they are causes. There has been no prior discussion, that I have noticed, about them being causes. I am challenging your contention that if it is not matter it does not exist. (Such a contention is, of course, trivially disproven by mentioning energy.) So does compassion exist? Does stupidity exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgsboi Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Do you mean 'why do I think they are causes'? At any rate, I have made no claim that they are causes. There has been no prior discussion, that I have noticed, about them being causes. I am challenging your contention that if it is not matter it does not exist. (Such a contention is, of course, trivially disproven by mentioning energy.) So does compassion exist? Does stupidity exist? Sorry, It was a spelling mistake. I meant "caused". Apologies. LOL Let me also add: mat·ter/ˈmatər/ Noun:Physical substance in general, as distinct from mind and spirit; (in physics) that which occupies space and possesses rest mass Mass then...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immortal Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I'm not using the bible as proof! To me a bible isn't proof of anything and I'm using it so I can put my answers in an understandable context for Christians. I'm using logic. Please tell me how anything could exist if it isn't matter or energy!? I'm not talking about spirits and x th dimensions. I'm asking you to explain why you think that if there is a god........ why do you think he isn't made from matter? What makes you think that matter exists in the physical world, science doesn't answer that, what science gives is an accurate model to describe the elements or entities in the physical world, it doesn't mean that the concepts or elements used in the scientific models are the ultimate reality, no greater reality should be attributed to those scientific models, we don't know what the physical world is made up of and science is not concerned to answer those questions, what science claims to explain or give is an accurate model to describe or model the events appearing to our observations. Therefore the actual physical world might be made up of anything, it could even be a deity dust, who knows, science doesn't say that the physical world should be made up of matter, it doesn't say that. So you cannot say that God should be made up of matter just because science gives a model which is represented based on elements of matter. Remember it is just a model not reality itself. Hence your argument doesn't follow logically. The physical world could be made up of anything. To the OP- The scientific speculation of the existence of extraterrestrial beings is something which can be falsified using the scientific method and therefore it is within the scope of science and even though multiverses contain a lot of metaphysical baggage in it, it is none the less a prediction arrived from the scientific models. Now what predictions does a theory of God makes, where do we look him, is there a reasonable evidence that we will find him somewhere in our visible universe, if we cannot make predictions about God which can be falsifiable then it is not within the scope of science and therefore the conclusion is that we don't know God exists or not. There is nothing in science showing evidence that he doesn't exist and hence a honest answer should be 'we don't know' and not pretend 'God is dead'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Sorry, It was a spelling mistake. I meant "caused". Apologies. Mass then...... That makes sense. I think such things as compassion and hatred are a consequence of energetic interaction of matter, resulting in changes in energy level and type. That, however, does not mean that they are matter. so my original point remains: your assertion is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgsboi Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 That makes sense. I think such things as compassion and hatred are a consequence of energetic interaction of matter, resulting in changes in energy level and type. That, however, does not mean that they are matter. so my original point remains: your assertion is wrong. So are you saying that they could relate to dark matter? By which I mean it being in another dimension so we can't see it but it still has an effect. The physical world could be made up of anything. Anything just implies mass and energy (or just energy). What else could it possibly be? And for the record, deity dust would still me matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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