Extracting Kalium from KNO3

[budullewraagh]

oh you just can't do that. if you really want potassium, just take a binary salt, namely the chloride, or the hydroxide, put a blowtorch to it and electrolyze it. just a few notes:

do it outside; from the chloride chlorine gas is produced. also, this may cause balls of molten potassium metal to fly out of your mixture. this is where it gets dangerous. your potassium product may explode if it's hot and it comes into contact with too many oxidizing gases too quickly. plus, you wouldnt want a ball of molten potassium to hit you in the eye. as well, you have to catch the potassium and put it in motor oil or something of the like immediately...or you could do it under argon. if you decide to do this, i suggest you go through everything with us beforehand...oh, and document whatever you do with pictures/video

[BenSon]

That would be sooo fun... but sounds very hard. However...

The hardest part to me sounds like keeping it under the argon atmosphere (how expensive is that stuff anyway?) I guess i could just keep a jet of it shooting at the sodium electrode. Then when im done just quickley throw the whole electrode into the oil...Man that sounds dodgy...

 

Have you ever electroliesd alakali salts?

 

~Scott

[BenSon]

http://cwx.prenhall.com/bookbind/pubbooks/blb/chapter23/medialib/blb2304.html

 

Man that looks hard to build...

 

~Scott

[raivo]

If you plan to electrolyse molten salts then NaOH is easyest to do because its melting point is relatively low ( 322C ). NaCl can only be used if it is mixed with CaCl2, otherwise its melting point is so high that sodium will evaporate instead being liquid. Argon is relatively cheap ( it is sold for industry in cylinders like oxygen or acetylene ) but to find supplier who wants to selle it in small quantities may be hard.

 

There may still be safer ways to make alkali metals at home. That is electrolysis of salt solutions if solvent is not water but some other liquid that will not react with alkali metals at room temperature. It has been done ( in fact it happens in some lithium cells ) but suitable solvents (Propylene carbonate, DMF, DMSO) are hard to get and need to be absolutely water free to be used for this.

[BenSon]

Well the NaOH definately sounds like a good option i was originaly going for K but its hydroxide is only 380C as well so either one i go for i'll use the hydroxide. I also wont have to worry about the Cl2 gas now. I'll look into those solvents, and the argon may be a problem but this is sounding less impossible. Thanks for the help.

[budullewraagh]

i dunno. youd have to be careful with how much current you add to your solution...and on second thought i dont think it would work because with organic solvents, you aren't ionizing the salt or hydroxide.

[raivo]

Ionization will occur at least with some organic solvents. Lithium batteries are proof for this. http://www.iupac.org/publications/pac/1998/pdf/7010x1905.pdf has some info on electrolysis in lithium cells.

 

There may still be other problems. I have no idea what secundary processes may take place especially if something goes wrong. If organic peroxides may form then this is rather dangerous thing. Can anyone estiamte this?

[budullewraagh]

it depends on what you use

[BenSon]

I think my best option would be to just melt down some hydroxide and run a charge through it.... see what happens. If it works, then worry about gathering it up in oil.

 

~Scott

[YT2095]

Ammonia will not displace the K in KNO3.

[Nevermore]

You can make smoke bombs with kno3.

[Von Klemmung]

Azides...

 

Nitrogen triiodide <=> Trinitrogen iodide, DUHHH!!! (slaps forehead).

 

Of course. Sorry about that.

 

This seems to be a VERY widespread misunderstanding over here. I've heard it from top guys who really should know better (as opposed to a half-studied non-individualist like me).

 

Point well taken. I'll be on the lookout for more of the same.

 

-------

 

Azane...

 

"azanes:

 

Saturated acyclic nitrogen hydrides having the general formula NnHn+2."

 

(cut from IUPAC site).

 

Set n=1. N1H1+2 = NH3 ?

 

Ammonia is AN azane, right? Budullewraagh?

 

Admittedly, the article I was referring from in the last post was inadequate.

 

In fact, it stated that ammonia was to be renamed Azane, when it should have stated that ammonia was to be INCLUDED in a GROUP called Azanes.

 

Mea Culpa!

[budullewraagh]

"Nitrogen triiodide <=> Trinitrogen iodide, DUHHH!!! (slaps forehead)."

no. that would mean NI3 <=> N3I, which just isn't true

 

that's a shame that ammonia will soon be renamed azane

[Von Klemmung]

Bud, I slap my forehead anew, and just for you!

 

I DID intend the reaction description (<=>) to be false, hence the slap

 

I have seen the compound described as ammonium triiodide, nitrogen triiodide, iodine nitrate, iodine azide etc. Just goes to show one, how important to read PROPER info.

 

And it seems (from a closer reading) that we should not fear for our ammonia.

 

Alas, it will now be just another azane, but ammonia it is.

[budullewraagh]

ah i see.

 

i've heard peolpe call it ammonium triiodide, but none of those others. it just doesnt make sense.

 

the idea of "azane" is scary. if ammonia=azane, then amine will become azine and amide will be azide. in 20 years somebody will find some old azides and start working with them and get blown up, thinking they were "azides" (really amides).

[Von Klemmung]

I might have committed another forehead-slap-worthy goof.

 

The term Azane is only listed under "two or more nitrogen atoms", but still ammonia fits the req's.

 

The funny Z' names are here, with explanations.

 

http://www.chem.qmul.ac.uk/iupac/class/nNs.html

 

As for Armstrong's in another thread...

 

Is it really that sensitive (TCAP level)? And I thought the stuff in the caps was sensitive.

 

Then I'd be nervous about washing matchheads out with acetone or somesuch. <#5>Need more INPUT!</#5>

[budullewraagh]

armstrong's mixture is rediculously sensitive.

 

match heads have no red phosphorus or potassium chlorate. they have the much more stable potassium perchlorate.

 

"The term Azane is only listed under "two or more nitrogen atoms", but still ammonia fits the req's."

ammonia has one nitrogen atom. it is not azane.

[Von Klemmung]

Bud, that's what I thought.

 

Still the article I misquoted from, stated the opposite.

 

It was published in a major occupational newspaper here, and I took it for Holy Writ.

 

HOORAY! AMMONIA IS AMMONIA! AZANES ARE SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

 

Thanks for setting me on the right track, Bud!