FREE BILLION DOLLAR INVENTION IDEA if it hast been invented already

[npbreakthrough]

HELLO.

 

id like to propose and idea for a propulsion system,

i saw a show on ufo's the other day, and the people on the show discussed propulsion systems and said they could not explain a system that could be quiet enough for one of the eye-witness accounts, they talked about jet propulsion and helicopter engines....

 

so anyway, i had an idea, maybe its already been invented,.....maybe not, maybe its classified

 

propose we take a magnetic rail system......

you know....how magnets on the track and on the train are opposing each other,

 

and we bend it into a loop making a concentric circle

, making the track the main outside loop, with magnet faces (the magnetic rail) on inside diameter

 

now instead of a train....we have helicopter blades, with the outside of each of 4 blades containing its own "train" contacting with and opposing the inside of the magnetic rail loop, apply electricity , and make prop spin........like a propeller blades inside a donut, with no central engine, kind of like the helicopters in avatar and many other sci-fi........google image of "scorpion gun ship" from avatar movie for a good idea of what im imagining

 

then what we have is a concentric circle magnetic rail loop system , a silent, energy efficient lightweight, helicopter prop , no transmission, belts, pulleys, etc

 

im no engineer, but maybe this will do somebody some good......then again maybe the magnetic rail technology just hasn't advanced to the point in which this would be feasible yet

 

im looking forward to some feedback from actual engineers or scientists on this proposal

 

ps,...if you make billions on defense contracts........give a little credit.......THANKS

Edited May 30, 2011 by npbreakthrough

[random]

Interesting idea ...........but not silent and it adds alot of weight. The Idea behind magnetic levitation is to reduce friction, you still have the rest of the lengths of blade chopping through the air, I also think they need the flexibility and vibration you have just taken away.

[npbreakthrough]

Interesting idea ...........but not silent and it adds alot of weight. The Idea behind magnetic levitation is to reduce friction, you still have the rest of the lengths of blade chopping through the air, I also think they need the flexibility and vibration you have just taken away.

thats what i was thinking also....by containing the blades in a closed loop, i would loose all the force from the edges of the blades, which i think is where most of the force actually comes.......but im not sure at all, thanks for the reply, also.....the assumptions of quietness and lightweight, are basically just reliant on the inevitable evolution of the magnetic rail technology itself.....

Edited May 30, 2011 by npbreakthrough

[CaptainPanic]

Why would this be more efficient than an ordinary electric motor? Electric motors are already very efficient: 78 - 92% efficient, according to this source... What you propose sounds like just another electric motor (specifically a stepper motor), which you admittedly have turned inside out to make it much larger and probably heavier.

 

And why would it be more silent? It's not the engine that makes the noise. Most research for noise reduction is focussed at the main rotor and tail rotor design now.

[npbreakthrough]

Why would this be more efficient than an ordinary electric motor? Electric motors are already very efficient: 78 - 92% efficient, according to this source... What you propose sounds like just another electric motor (specifically a stepper motor), which you admittedly have turned inside out to make it much larger and probably heavier.

 

And why would it be more silent? It's not the engine that makes the noise. Most research for noise reduction is focussed at the main rotor and tail rotor design now.

 

good point captain.......it is like a stepper motor, im no engineer so, this is the first im hearing of the stepper, so you'll have to forgive my ignorance, ....but mostly i was interested in what kind of speeds could be achieved by the prop, on a more concentric route of magnetism.(especially considering the speeds attained by rail guns).....im imagining something with many more points than a simple stepper motor though..with no change of polarity necessary...and again , the weight, noise issue,....basically just wishful thinking

 

thanks for the feedback

[CaptainPanic]

The rail gun can indeed achieve speeds of bloody-hell-that's-fast meters/second.

 

A propeller (which this thing you describe essentially is) is limited by some other things however:

- speed of sound

- turbulence

- centrifugal / centripetal force (I forgot which one of the two is the right one here)

 

Speed of sound: imagine that the tips of the rotor are going faster than the speed of sound. In something that rotates, the centre is basically not moving very fast. This means that somewhere along the rotor, you're constantly breaking the sound barrier... which will probably destroy the rotor. In other words: I would suggest that you keep the speed of the rotor tips below that of the speed of sound.

 

Turbulence: Because your rotors will pass some stagnant support elements (which keep the centre of the rotor in place), you will get some high shear forces in the air. There will be pressure differences caused by the passage of the rotor past such stagnant support element. This will cause vibrations. This will limit your velocity, and increase noise.

 

- centrifugal / centripetal force: you can just break it all by turning it too fast. Probably the least of your worries though.

 

So, I am sorry to conclude that as far as I can see, your "billion dollar idea" is nothing but a very heavy helicopter with electric engines.

[npbreakthrough]

The rail gun can indeed achieve speeds of bloody-hell-that's-fast meters/second.

 

A propeller (which this thing you describe essentially is) is limited by some other things however:

- speed of sound

- turbulence

- centrifugal / centripetal force (I forgot which one of the two is the right one here)

 

Speed of sound: imagine that the tips of the rotor are going faster than the speed of sound. In something that rotates, the centre is basically not moving very fast. This means that somewhere along the rotor, you're constantly breaking the sound barrier... which will probably destroy the rotor. In other words: I would suggest that you keep the speed of the rotor tips below that of the speed of sound.

 

Turbulence: Because your rotors will pass some stagnant support elements (which keep the centre of the rotor in place), you will get some high shear forces in the air. There will be pressure differences caused by the passage of the rotor past such stagnant support element. This will cause vibrations. This will limit your velocity, and increase noise.

 

- centrifugal / centripetal force: you can just break it all by turning it too fast. Probably the least of your worries though.

 

So, I am sorry to conclude that as far as I can see, your "billion dollar idea" is nothing but a very heavy helicopter with electric engines.

 

 

darn it.......okay how about ten bucks, a new keyboard, and its yours.!?

[AlphaSheeppig]

For the silence, have you considered the ridiculously loud whoosh whoosh whoosh of the blades spinning through the air at close to the speed of sound (for any decent thrust), and then maybe some humming from some transformers to power the magnets and then the engine or generator used to make the electricity - batteries are out of the question for any reasonably sized craft because they just weigh far too much.

 

Apart from the magnets, the propulsion system you are proposing is known as a ducted fan. They are indeed more efficient than open rotors, and produce more thrust, and produce less noise... The main reason helicopters rotor blades are open is because ducted fans are just far too heavy. The number one rule when designing anything that can fly is to keep it as light as possible.

[CaptainPanic]

darn it.......okay how about ten bucks, a new keyboard, and its yours.!?

Well... 10 $ is worth about 5 euro cents nowadays, so that might be affordable

 

On a more serious note: Sorry to bring reality crashing down on your dreams... be proud of yourself though. You only become an engineer the hard way... by having many ideas that others already had. By learning why someone else already made a fortune out of it, or by learning why they failed in the past or will fail in the future.

 

Until, after learning a lot, you've learned enough to slowly evolve into someone capable of doing innovations yourself. This will take a lot of time. But I can assure you that it's fun all the way.

 

So, don't be afraid to post the next billion dollar idea. And please don't be offended if we burn it again.

[Hal.]

npbreakthrough , Your idea is failing at the concept stage . Would you prefer to spend a few dollars to make a prototype , then fail at the prototype stage or maybe learn a valuable lesson ?

[npbreakthrough]

npbreakthrough , Your idea is failing at the concept stage . Would you prefer to spend a few dollars to make a prototype , then fail at the prototype stage or maybe learn a valuable lesson ?

 

hey hal, thanks for the reply,

 

im no engineer, i have no stake in this idea , and therefore no "dog" in the fight,

and no lesson to learn

i figured id come to a science forum site and run the idea across a few real engineers ,

 

fortunately all my questions have already been addressed by other members,

and i now see how this idea is not as viable as maybe i thought it could be.

 

ive always known the only way to become less ignorant is to ask questions from those who are less ignorant than myself,

so i haven't failed in anyway, in fact, id like to believe i came out with just as about as good as an outcome that i could have expected,

although much short of my billion dollar goal.

 

but i do appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule, to come super late into this thread and propose failure upon me

i hope you accomplished your goal of making yourself feel smarter without having to contribute any actual intellectual stimulus or engineering expertise

 

thanks, to everyone else

[Hal.]

npbreakthrough , my reply is short and to the point . I am trying to encourage you to take the idea to a physical existence stage , which can lead to two more options , then . You can accept the idea will go no further or you may then notice something you had not noticed before and continue on . You may start to design a door and finish designing a window . I don't need to make myself feel smarter , there are people in these forums who I will learn from and if people learn from me that is also good .

[hawksmere]

Thin line between giving sound scientific advise/feedback and just being rude and curt. Give an answer not arrogance. npbreakthrough, got some interesting and straightforward issues within the theory and just some prat that thinks we learn from, well in this case, nothing but a vanity affair!

 

I work in Engineering and think we actually have a brushless engines where the magnets don't actually move on the outside of a stator but the coils rotate in the middle. They use drag however as P.W.M squere 3 pilses, just like a Squirell Cage set-up. Not forgetting the very fact that energy is dissipated as the force is reduced. All magnets have a maximum energy product (Mega Gauss oersteds). Although they still hold a lot of force inthier own right when dying out not enough to influence another body, even another magnet. even the most powerful and expensive ( NdFeB) magnets max out at less than 50 MGOe. Further more all losses in energy are actually incurred by these 33%-66% concept magnet devices alone, the energy consumed in the overall manufacturing process is 20-25 times the actual output.

 

This is a good, but old read that may help

 

http://www.ldolphin.org/zpe.html

Edited June 3, 2011 by hawksmere

[npbreakthrough]

npbreakthrough , my reply is short and to the point . I am trying to encourage you to take the idea to a physical existence stage , which can lead to two more options , then . You can accept the idea will go no further or you may then notice something you had not noticed before and continue on . You may start to design a door and finish designing a window . I don't need to make myself feel smarter , there are people in these forums who I will learn from and if people learn from me that is also good .

 

if you were trying to help,

then i apologize,

i may have misinterpreted your tone.....

 

Thin line between giving sound scientific advise/feedback and just being rude and curt. Give an answer not arrogance. npbreakthrough, got some interesting and straightforward issues within the theory and just some prat that thinks we learn from, well in this case, nothing but a vanity affair!

 

I work in Engineering and think we actually have a brushless engines where the magnets don't actually move on the outside of a stator but the coils rotate in the middle. They use drag however as P.W.M squere 3 pilses, just like a Squirell Cage set-up. Not forgetting the very fact that energy is dissipated as the force is reduced. All magnets have a maximum energy product (Mega Gauss oersteds). Although they still hold a lot of force inthier own right when dying out not enough to influence another body, even another magnet. even the most powerful and expensive ( NdFeB) magnets max out at less than 50 MGOe. Further more all losses in energy are actually incurred by these 33%-66% concept magnet devices alone, the energy consumed in the overall manufacturing process is 20-25 times the actual output.

 

This is a good, but old read that may help

 

http://www.ldolphin.org/zpe.html

 

thanks for the reply and the link,

its a little over my head

 

but i gather from it that the magnets are not efficient enough at this point

heard.

[Hal.]

1. Identification of the Problem

 

2. Research the Problem – Gather Information

 

3. Analysis of the Problem – Design Constraints

 

4. Brainstorm Alternative Design Solutions

 

5. Modeling "Best" Solution

 

6. Testing and Evaluating Model/Prototype

 

7. Refine and Retest Model/Prototype

 

8. Communicate Final Design (e.g. Presentation)

[hawksmere]

Hal's last advice is what you should be using all the time. A very logical approach and covers everything you need in order to acheive results and eliminate time wasting.

[raghavendrabsrg]

Hi! there,

Im an actual engineering student.

The idea is good,

But the mechanics?? i doubt on that.

 

Your idea: 1) achieve energy efficiency.

2) works good in stealth mode.

 

My answer: But, the aerodynamics does not allow that to happen, you see when you say that the rotor has its magnetic elements face towards the outer circle(with opposite polarities - i mean the electromagnets) the tip of the rotor head will always be "sharp" which will not give it enough surface area to interact with the magnetic fields of the outer circle.

 

 

conclusion: It wont work.

Solution: Find an alternative idea ( may be use this idea in the engine of that "scorpion gun ship" instead of using it in the rotor!!)

 

keep it chilled ppl:)

please do reply

 

-Raghavendra bsrg