Western Civilization vs Creationism

[Moontanman]

Do the so called culture wars really amount to a real war being fought with propaganda and and suicide bombers?

 

Is our western civilization basically at war with fundamentalist religions, often called creationism? They are trying to not just inject their religious ideas into our civilization but to use those religious ideas to indoctrinate everyone into their beliefs and there by changing civilization back to something resembling the dark ages of our not so distant past. Their stated goals are to oppose science and it's methods by the use of lies and misrepresentations and substitute their (magical) thinking in place of the scientific method. And to change our own values to limit any criticisms of their religion or goals by using censorship political correctness, and hate crime laws on anyone who opposes them. They want to indoctrinate our children in school with their religious beliefs, use political correctness and hate crime laws to limit what adults can can say in opposition to them.

[A Tripolation]

Do the so called culture wars really amount to a real war being fought with propaganda and and suicide bombers?

 

...what?

[Light Storm]

Ironically, Suicide bombers are often targeting western diplomacy because they are ligiemtly feeling their way of life is under attack. I'm not saying what they are doing is right. But if you think we live in 'freedom' or 'peace' trust me when I say you are wrong. We are each under the thumb of economic oppression and money makes the rules, not people.

 

I'm all about freedom of speech, and freedom to share beliefs with one another. I don't mind if Christians want to open their own schools and teach what ever they want. I have the choice on where I would like to send my children.

 

Not to long ago, 'Anti Christian' organizations starting posting 'Anti God' campaigns all over the city. Stuff like "God didn't create man in his image, We created God!" What they where doing was just as bad if not worse then any religious cult that sought to 'save' the masses.

 

Everyone should have a right to share their beliefs. In fairness, they should be open to hearing alternate perspectives. I've personally been black listed by any organization that would knock on my door. Trust me... They don't like it when you start opening the eyes of followers to the real world.

[Athena]

Hold on who are they? Christians, Muslims, both?

 

What is it about the Dark Ages you don't like? Seriously if this is going to be a meaningful discussion, you need to be more specific.

 

Keep in mind Christians set our values, including the values of freedom of speech and freedom of religion, because they experience religious persecution and were serious about ending it. However, Christianity without literacy in the Greek and Roman classics is not the same as the Christianity in the beginning of the US. That Christianity embraced science, starting with Newton, and as our knowledge of science increased, we became more convinced we could bring heaven to earth, by having a more complete understanding of truth, and therefore, the ability to end such evils as disease and poverty. However, then, we dropped the classics and replace liberal education with education for technology, and we left moral training to the church. Now we are in trouble. Christianity has become very problematic, and those who insist there is no God, and even ban people from forums for speaking of God, as I have experienced in another forum, are equally part of the problem. I think we need to return to education in the classics and humanism. That added to the knowledge we are gaining would be really awesome. This isn't just about facts, but very much about the spirit of our actions.

[Moontanman]

Hold on who are they? Christians, Muslims, both?

 

Actually creationism is not restricted to any one religion, there are more Muslim creationists than Christian creationists then you have Sikhs, Hindus, and Zoroastrians, all of them have the same theme, the world was created according to the words in a book and science is totally wrong and they want everyone else to believe that as well, by force if necessary.

 

What is it about the Dark Ages you don't like? Seriously if this is going to be a meaningful discussion, you need to be more specific.

 

Having no human rights unless you were a royal or priest comes to mind, the horrible living conditions and the total lack of freedom to do anything not allowed by religion comes to mind as well not to mention religion dictating reality like a flat earth, and everything going around the flat earth and the crystal dome that covered it. The torture and killing of anyone who disagrees would seem to be a down side as well.

 

Keep in mind Christians set our values, including the values of freedom of speech and freedom of religion, because they experience religious persecution and were serious about ending it.

 

Um no, our western values were not set by the church, the church fought them kicking and screaming and the creationists are still doing it, rationalists and other intellectuals are the people who gelded the power of the church and set up our western ideas of human rights.

 

However, Christianity without literacy in the Greek and Roman classics is not the same as the Christianity in the beginning of the US. That Christianity embraced science, starting with Newton, and as our knowledge of science increased, we became more convinced we could bring heaven to earth, by having a more complete understanding of truth, and therefore, the ability to end such evils as disease and poverty. However, then, we dropped the classics and replace liberal education with education for technology, and we left moral training to the church. Now we are in trouble. Christianity has become very problematic, and those who insist there is no God, and even ban people from forums for speaking of God, as I have experienced in another forum, are equally part of the problem. I think we need to return to education in the classics and humanism. That added to the knowledge we are gaining would be really awesome. This isn't just about facts, but very much about the spirit of our actions.

 

 

So far you have yet to show any real connection between the things you claim, the Greeks and Romans you are so enthralled with held personal freedoms in very low regard for any one but the ruling class, the slaves would not have agreed with your assertions i am sure but this is not part of this discussion, I don't want this discussion to fall into the black hole of your idea of God because were are talking about creationists here, not people who believe in freedom of speech or anything else their idea of religion does not allow and from what I understand of your idea your idea of religion would require...

 

Creationism is an intellectual black hole, originally Islam was the light of reason and science but they were sucked into the intellectual black hole of worshiping the words in a book as absolute truth and yet to emerge form it.

 

Ironically, Suicide bombers are often targeting western diplomacy because they are ligiemtly feeling their way of life is under attack. I'm not saying what they are doing is right. But if you think we live in 'freedom' or 'peace' trust me when I say you are wrong. We are each under the thumb of economic oppression and money makes the rules, not people.

 

Actually it's more the right to restrict the way of life of people that is under attack, not their actual way of life.

 

 

I'm all about freedom of speech, and freedom to share beliefs with one another. I don't mind if Christians want to open their own schools and teach what ever they want. I have the choice on where I would like to send my children.

 

Sadly that is not what creationists want, they want to indoctrinate all children in thier religion via public schools by claiming that science is not the truth and that they have the absolute truth.

 

Not to long ago, 'Anti Christian' organizations starting posting 'Anti God' campaigns all over the city. Stuff like "God didn't create man in his image, We created God!" What they where doing was just as bad if not worse then any religious cult that sought to 'save' the masses.

 

 

I've seen those as well, i doubt they had any real positive impact for the cause they were trying to promote.

 

 

Everyone should have a right to share their beliefs. In fairness, they should be open to hearing alternate perspectives. I've personally been black listed by any organization that would knock on my door. Trust me... They don't like it when you start opening the eyes of followers to the real world.

 

No, i disagree, there is no controversy that evolution is somehow not explaining nor is there a conspiracy to hide the "truth' in the bible by 'evolutionists', creationism is nothing but a blatant attempt to roll back knowledge by lies and propaganda, nothing less.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Moontanman

[Marat]

The liberal worldview of the modern West deliberately exists in open interaction with empirical data and remains open to change as part of its essential perspective. It is democratic in the sense that it accepts no doctrine as final, other than the formal, structural principles that people must be guranateed their autonomy and that society must be open to possibility of democratic evolution to new styles of social organization. Their fluidity and openness induces them to prefer an attitude of tolerance to dissenting views.

 

In contrast to this, there are cultures which represent 'comprehensive doctrines' (as decribed by the Harvard social philosopher, John Rawls), which accept certain fixed beliefs as unchangeable and resistant to any empirical refutation. They also embrace a static vision of society rather than the evolutionary view of democracy. Their goal is that people make the right choice, not that they be kept free to make their own choices, so immersion in the one true culture is the defining feature of the good person and the valid life, not openness to critical evaluation of various options. Their certainty that they have discovered the 'right' way for people to live makes tolerance of dissent meaningless for them as a public value.

 

Now when liberalism collides with comprehensive doctrines, each of these opposites has two options for how to react. Liberalism can tolerate the threatening dogmas as just another form of dissent which liberal openness ought to allow, or it can adopt the pose of militant liberalism and attack the comprehensive doctrines as threats to its existence or as assaults on freedoms which have to be regarded as universal human rights. Germany's laws against Nazism, Europe's laws against Holocaust denial, and France's laws against the veil are examples of militant liberalism. The U.S. embraces a more tolerant version of liberalism.

 

Comprehensive doctrines can respond to liberalism either by retreating into their own insular communities, as often happens in immigrant groups in the inner cities of America, or they can aggressive attack liberalism as in the case of radical Islam's suicide bombers. There is an obvious parallel between militant liberalism and radical Islam, though militant liberalism is aggressive but not murderously so.

 

The ultimate way for liberalism to win out is to teach the world relativism before trying to teach it liberalism, since relativism, once you think about it seriously, seems irresistable, given that nearly all truths have to be regarded as to some degree tentative by thinking people.