zoology

[Athena]

On a preserve, rhinos were being killed. It was unclear what was killing. A possibility was a rhino had gone mad, and was killing other rhinos, or lions were killing the rhinos. After some time of studying the endangered rhinos, the researchers witnessed elephants killing the rhinos. This is unusual behavior for the elephants. Normally rhinos and elephants get along. The adolescent elephants were also demonstrating unusual sexual behavior.

 

These elephants had been orphaned and moved to the reserve. When their delinquent behavior was noticed, the authorities brought in older, naturally socialized elephants. In time, the adolescent elephants became correctly socialized and the killings stopped.

[lemur]

so the elephants were attacking the rhinos purely out of adolescent aggression?

[Athena]

so the elephants were attacking the rhinos purely out of adolescent aggression?

 

That is what is believed to be the case. They concluded elephants learn elephant etiquette from their elders, and that it was a mistake to separate the youngsters from the adults.

 

I am excited by the research. I think we learn a lot about ourselves through zoology, and this is one the main reasons I am opposed to religions. I think it is a serious mistake to think a God created humans differently from all the other animals. It is a mistake to ignore the social problems created by poverty and divorce, especially in inner city ghettos where the children do not have the socialization of middle income neighborhoods. Add this ignorance of how we become as we are, to education focused on technology, instead of socialization, and the cost of incarcerating people becomes greater than the cost of education. Elephants are doing a better job of correcting their misbehaving young.

[Marat]

Was it a problem in animal socialization that was the source of these troubles or was it just that for purely biological reasons, such as better nutrition, for example, the younger rhinos were becoming sexualized at an earlier age, and with this development they were also becoming more aggressive? In humans as well there has recently been a decrease in the age of puberty/menarchy, shifting downwards by several years in comparison with the 18th century, for example, when sexual maturity usually didn't occur until 17. The reasons for this have something to do with better nutrition, but the causes are not entirely clear, and perhaps whatever is mysteriously causing humans to mature much earlier than before is also operative in rhinos.

 

Generally, while animal behavior does tell us something about human behavior, we shouldn't take that too far, since we humans exist not just in a matrix of biological influences but also in a richly-textured cultural matrix which alters our behavior and the effect of biological factors greatly. Our behavior, for example, is from an early age informed by the factually untrue, moral posit that all humans are equal, and this assumption operates on us, our socialization, and our social structures in a profound way, yet there is no way an animal society would have this factor operative in it.

[lemur]

That is what is believed to be the case. They concluded elephants learn elephant etiquette from their elders, and that it was a mistake to separate the youngsters from the adults.

 

I am excited by the research. I think we learn a lot about ourselves through zoology, and this is one the main reasons I am opposed to religions. I think it is a serious mistake to think a God created humans differently from all the other animals. It is a mistake to ignore the social problems created by poverty and divorce, especially in inner city ghettos where the children do not have the socialization of middle income neighborhoods. Add this ignorance of how we become as we are, to education focused on technology, instead of socialization, and the cost of incarcerating people becomes greater than the cost of education. Elephants are doing a better job of correcting their misbehaving young.

Making conclusions like this involves a lot of assumptions. Before you could really apply the knowledge about the elephant socialization to humans, you would have to know what it was the older elephants were teaching the younger ones that causes them not to attack other animals. At that point, you could compare the socialization processes of the elephants with humans and identify variations in conditions and outcomes. You are also assuming that aggression doesn't get expressed among middle-income children and that it does among people living in "inner city ghettos." Hopefully you realize that you're generalizing based on media stereotypes and that many children in both settings behave like the stereotype of the other setting, for example. The question is what causes one individual to repress/express aggression in one way and another in another. It is not as simple as correlating behavior with categorical identities.

[Moontanman]

On a preserve, rhinos were being killed. It was unclear what was killing. A possibility was a rhino had gone mad, and was killing other rhinos, or lions were killing the rhinos. After some time of studying the endangered rhinos, the researchers witnessed elephants killing the rhinos. This is unusual behavior for the elephants. Normally rhinos and elephants get along. The adolescent elephants were also demonstrating unusual sexual behavior.

 

These elephants had been orphaned and moved to the reserve. When their delinquent behavior was noticed, the authorities brought in older, naturally socialized elephants. In time, the adolescent elephants became correctly socialized and the killings stopped.

 

 

I think this is reasonable evidence that elephants have and need a culture similar to the way humans have and need culture and the culture of chimps, whales, and some other animals. I am defining culture here was behavior that is not transmitted through our genes but through adults teaching children who have extended childhoods and cannot survive well if at all with out this information, this information tells them how to behave, where food and water is at different times of the year, any complex information they do not get via simply being what ever animal they are and has to be passed from adults to children and to their children on and on. I think it is part of the reason animals with complex cultures tend to have large brains and intellegence.

 

I would like to question the idea that Elephants and rhinos get along, in the wild they are not exactly pals, Elephants are quite intelligent creatures live in large, long term family groups and generally do not harass other animals that leave them alone, rhinos on the other hand are dangerous, irritable, and apt to charge and gore almost anything, elephants included. Elephants are sometimes killed by rhinos, in the wild Elephants give rhinos a wide berth. I have honestly never heard of the opposite happening. How about a link to this info?

 

Can you be a bit more clear on the unusual sexual behavior?

Edited June 6, 2011 by Moontanman

[Athena]

Making conclusions like this involves a lot of assumptions. Before you could really apply the knowledge about the elephant socialization to humans, you would have to know what it was the older elephants were teaching the younger ones that causes them not to attack other animals. At that point, you could compare the socialization processes of the elephants with humans and identify variations in conditions and outcomes. You are also assuming that aggression doesn't get expressed among middle-income children and that it does among people living in "inner city ghettos." Hopefully you realize that you're generalizing based on media stereotypes and that many children in both settings behave like the stereotype of the other setting, for example. The question is what causes one individual to repress/express aggression in one way and another in another. It is not as simple as correlating behavior with categorical identities.

 

The young elephants were orphaned and moved to the reserve. The people at the reserve were unaware of elephants ever killing rhinos, so they weren't even the suspected killers. It was a surprise when they began witnessing the elephants killing the rhinos. They suspected the problem was caused by the fact they had been orphaned and moved to the reserve. They brought in older elephants to see if this would make a difference and did. They concluded the problem was caused by removing the young from their herd, and that bringing in older elephants resolved the problem. That is just what happened and I do not want to argue with you.

[lemur]

The young elephants were orphaned and moved to the reserve. The people at the reserve were unaware of elephants ever killing rhinos, so they weren't even the suspected killers. It was a surprise when they began witnessing the elephants killing the rhinos. They suspected the problem was caused by the fact they had been orphaned and moved to the reserve. They brought in older elephants to see if this would make a difference and did. They concluded the problem was caused by removing the young from their herd, and that bringing in older elephants resolved the problem. That is just what happened and I do not want to argue with you.

All I was pointing out is that these are very broad-stroke observations that have underlying causation.

[Athena]

I think this is reasonable evidence that elephants have and need a culture similar to the way humans have and need culture and the culture of chimps, whales, and some other animals. I am defining culture here was behavior that is not transmitted through our genes but through adults teaching children who have extended childhoods and cannot survive well if at all with out this information, this information tells them how to behave, where food and water is at different times of the year, any complex information they do not get via simply being what ever animal they are and has to be passed from adults to children and to their children on and on. I think it is part of the reason animals with complex cultures tend to have large brains and intellegence.

 

I would like to question the idea that Elephants and rhinos get along, in the wild they are not exactly pals, Elephants are quite intelligent creatures live in large, long term family groups and generally do not harass other animals that leave them alone, rhinos on the other hand are dangerous, irritable, and apt to charge and gore almost anything, elephants included. Elephants are sometimes killed by rhinos, in the wild Elephants give rhinos a wide berth. I have honestly never heard of the opposite happening. How about a link to this info?

 

Can you be a bit more clear on the unusual sexual behavior?

 

This link is different from the show, and appears to explain why the people at the reserve thought bringing in older elephants would work. It also clarifies the human guilt in this tragedy, is the elephants were orphaned because humans killed their parents. We call it culling, to kill the parents and orphan the young, and they might be coming to the idea that "culling" animals as we cull fruit for the canning factory, might be immoral.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/642731.stm

 

I would love to know more about the sexual behavior, and also how the old elephants impacted the behavior of the young.

 

Marat, I think we make too much out of our difference from animals. As Moontanman said, animals also have cultures. I forget the name of the primate that is just like chimpanzee, except they are female dominated, and use intimate behavior to maintain social order, in contrast to the male dominated chimps who rely more on aggression to maintain order. I am not sure these differences are genetic. I think they are learned. Other cultural differences have been observed among different species.

 

One of the most damaging blows to democracy was Fraud and the recognition of our irrational behavior. Then for military reasons we stopped focusing education on teaching our young to be good citizens, and began moving in the direction of a police state. What happened in Germany regarding the Jews, was unthinkable to citizens of the US, now in another 30, such behavior might not be unthinkable, because we are on the path Germany followed, and killing could become our way of managing human problems. I think there is a huge danger in believing we are not like animals, and will repeat the opinion that the worse problem with religion today, is preventing us from accepting our realty of being as animals. We have a larger vocabulary than any other species, so our actions have more variety and we can benefit from a written history and science research, but we are still animals, and a lot of what we do puts our intelligence is doubt.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Athena

[Marat]

"Fraud" for "Freud" -- an excellent pun to encapsulate the contemporary view of his earlier vaunted reputation! In German, where "Freude" is "joy," the pun was always more positive.

[Athena]

"Fraud" for "Freud" -- an excellent pun to encapsulate the contemporary view of his earlier vaunted reputation! In German, where "Freude" is "joy," the pun was always more positive.

 

I hate that! I would love to be as smart as I want to be, but my brain does terrible things with words and numbers. However, I very much appreciate your explanation of my error. I have a problem with some of Freud's work because his culture was so sexist, and that influenced his conclusions, so the play on words kind of tickles me.