Energy independence, Actually, Independence from Middle east oil

[SCOOTER93]

I was watching Robert Kennedy jr on TV this evening and he was saying it could be done with a little conservation, windmills and solar ect. renewable and alternate energy sources. He thought it would take maybe 15 years to do it.

 

Question?

 

IF IF IF it could be done, would it really be a good thing?

 

I suppose we would disengage from that part of the world and leave them to revert back to whatever previous centuary appeals to them. That would be a haven for terrorist, despotic dictators, and people who do not like us very well.

 

Where as now, we are interested in that part of the world BECAUSE we would like to buy their oil. We have a chance to establish a democratic government in Afgan. and Iraq. Saudia Arabia and Iran are under pressure to move toward more democracy.

 

Any thoughts on this anyone?

 

 

Scooter93

It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble, its the things you know that ain't so.

[drz]

well, we have an interest in their oil, because the supply is dwindling. If after the last drop of oil has been pumped from the mideast, what will hold our interest? The region is likely to degrade once our oil dollars quit flowing.

 

But then again, so will pretty much every society if we don't find alternative energy methods. I think we need to move towards idependance from oil altogether. We need to preserve what we've got left so we can still have drag racing and scca. There are alternative methods, it is merely a matter of the fat cats in the oil industry, and other rich people, to invest into the development of better and more effiecent generation and storage.

 

But seriously, how do you expect capitalism to thrive, when trucks, plains and trains can't transfer the product to the store shelves, nor the consumers make it to the stores to buy it, either here or the middle east?

[Douglas]

well' date=' we have an interest in their oil, because the supply is dwindling. If after the last drop of oil has been pumped from the mideast, what will hold our interest? The region is likely to degrade once our oil dollars quit flowing.

 

But then again, so will pretty much every society if we don't find alternative energy methods. I think we need to move towards idependance from oil altogether. We need to preserve what we've got left so we can still have drag racing and scca. There are alternative methods, it is merely a matter of the fat cats in the oil industry, and other rich people, to invest into the development of better and more effiecent generation and storage.

 

But seriously, how do you expect capitalism to thrive, when trucks, plains and trains can't transfer the product to the store shelves, nor the consumers make it to the stores to buy it, either here or the middle east?[/quote']

Two things come to mind..........which the environmentalists oppose. Drilling for oil in Anwar and building more nuke plants.

[drz]

uhm, did you read my post?

 

Nuke plants could help, if we can do it safely, which I believe if we can land robots on mars, we can.

 

But drilling for more oil is only going to prolong the inevitable. Eventually, and especially if we continue increasing consumption rates, THERE WILL BE NO OIL!!

 

This is the problem. How does a trucking company deliver grocerys to the store if there is no oil, or if it is so expensive it drives the cost of food through the roof?

 

How does capitalism work, if people cannot buy products?

 

The OP was talking about setting up democracy in the mid-east. Capitalism usually comes with democracy. If capitalism cannot function, how will democracy do without it?

[SCOOTER93]

Two things come to mind..........which the environmentalists oppose. Drilling for oil in Anwar and building more nuke plants.

 

Nukes are not politically feasible, and will not be until the lights go out. There is a story in the wall street journal today about wind turbines. With the fed tax credit of 1.8 cents per KW, they are the cheapest power around. In Kansas Flint hills area, (Roughly between Wichita and Kansas City) power companies were running into a lot of trouble from land owners who were upset by the prospect of these un-sightly machines. The towers were stated to be 300 feet high and the turbine looked to be maybe 120 feet in diameter. They claimed mega-watt power from these things. Anyway, nukes are not the only thing some people object to.

 

Personally, I would save Anwar for National Defence, maybe develop it and build the pipeline, so it would be ready to go when needed, but if we did that it would most likely not be possible to keep from using it to power our gas guzzling urges.

 

With enough cheap electric power we could make hydrogen, I suppose, and do our transport with the fuel cell.

 

Back to my original question, would it be a good thing to withdraw from the Middle East? if we could

[Phi for All]

Part of the problem is the way we look at it. We assume that the oil is gone overnight and we are left with our pants down. I guarantee that is not what will happen.

 

Any move away from fossil fuels will be a good thing, and the fact that it will happen over a period of time should give smart people time to transition. There would be plenty of oil for all our needs except gasoline distillation if we could find a better way to power our transportation. The Middle East might not have quite the leverage it does now but they could certainly still sell crude oil for purposes other than fuel.

 

The biggest problem the Middle East has in all of this is becoming like the banana republics of Africa & South America. When European and American endeavors came to mine the mineral deposits, they traded for bananas with the natives. The natives enjoyed the "fruits" of this labor and turned the majority of their attention to it. When the miners quickly pulled out after the ore was depleted, the natives had no one to sell bananas to, and bananas were their whole economy.

 

If the Middle East can develope a more diversified economy using their oil riches now, they won't get left holding the bag (or barrel).

[drz]

well, of course we won't wake up tommorow without oil. But we will wake up tommorow with it costing a couple pennys more, as recent trends have shown.

 

I mean, when was the last time you paid over $2.00 (americans) for a gallon of 87 octance?

[Sayonara]

The cost of extracting, deriving and transporting oil-based fuels will make them a non-viable source of energy long before it's all gone.

[Phi for All]

The unfortunate thing about having the time to work on alternative energies is that it is highly unlikely someone is going to come up with something cheaper for us to use. They know we're willing to pay $2/gallon US so they know we'll probably pay a little bit more for something else. I always thought if they could come up with a way to draw hydrogen cheaply from seawater we'd have it made.

 

Then I watched as we quickly became used to paying the same price for bottled water as we do for soda and other soft drinks. Merchandisers are careful now to put the water on a different aisle than the Pepsi so we can't easily compare.

 

I'm afraid that unless some major discovery is made quickly, we are doomed to continue to pay more and more for energy.

[drz]

I've a plan in the works, gonna make ya sweat, but us fat americans need it anyhow.

 

Now, I'm only lacking the resources to make it happen, but that will come soon enough.

[Phi for All]

If this is that silly "Distillation by Disco" thing again, you can count me out!

[drz]

hehe, na, I'm thinking it would be feasible for short distance trips. From there, we need to start using public trains and busses I think for more longer distances.

[Phi for All]

My wife's cousin in Germany works for a company that makes mag-lev trainlines. They sit 15' above the roads so there's no interference with traffic, they can be retro-fitted along major highway corridors, the engines have no mechanical parts to break down or wear out, they don't touch the tracks so there's no wear and tear, they only power the section of track they're on and the one in front of it so it's energy efficient, it emits no pollution, no sound except for wind, and they can reach speeds over 300mph.

 

They biggest negative economic impact is that they would put small commuter airlines out of business since it would be cheaper (and faster since trains don't get caught in holding patterns) to ride the train.

[drz]

airplanes suck anyways. They fall, and get used for bombs.

 

Atleast trains are confined and can't be driven off course, anyhow, I'm derailing this thread (what a pun)

 

But in a way I guess not, since in order to become independant of oil, we need to know how.

[Phi for All]

I've a plan in the works' date=' gonna make ya sweat, but us fat americans need it anyhow.

 

Now, I'm only lacking the resources to make it happen, but that will come soon enough.[/quote']Can you tell us about this plan? I'll send you a buck if you do....

[john5746]

[quote name=Phi for All

If the Middle East can develope a more diversified economy using their oil riches now' date=' they won't get left holding the bag (or barrel).[/quote]

 

I think this is a major problem. Resource rich countries never seem to invest in their people, which is the most valuable resource. This makes it difficult to have a middle class.

 

I think loosing dependence on oil can help the Middle East as much as it will everyone else.

[drz]

hehe, well, its kinda silly, and it would require some effort on behalf of the driver.

 

It may have even been done or attempted, I'm not sure.

 

But basically, make a more effiecient bicycle. Of course, since most people lack balance, and bikes are dangerous on highways, it would be 4 wheeled, electrically assisted, possibly a small engine to serve as a generator.

 

I don't wanna give to much out, even though most will probably view it as another crazy idea. With a very simple 2 seater model I've got in mind, speeds of 35-45 mph should be possible. Now, like I said, I think this would be ideal for local travel, in city limits, where most traffic is congested as is. The hard part of selling it would be getting lazy ass people to pedal there selves around.

 

But then again, if gas is 10 bucks a gallon at some future point in time, would you rather spend 10 bucks, or lose some fat cells?

 

upon rereading this I realize I've barely told you anything at all. I've always had borderline crazy ideas, thought I had pm figured out once, know better now. I still believe cheap energy is possible, but nothing is free. In this case, it will cost a couple hersheys bars and maybe a mountain dew or 2, and a lil sweat.

 

But as I said earlier, I think the bigger problem will be in goods transportation. If gas prices climb too high, trucking companys will have to raise prices to deliver the goods. If this happens, manufacturing companys will have to raise prices to offset the cost of delivery.

 

It results in higher prices in the marketplace, and with consumers already spending there wages just to make their wages, I see the entire system screeching to a halt.

 

Don't worry about the buck

[Phi for All]

hehe, well, its kinda silly, and it would require some effort on behalf of the driver.

Just remember the average US consumer will own $2500 worth of athletic equipment, spend $75/month on gym membership, and also spend an extra 5 minutes cruising around in their 12mpg SUV to find a parking space close to the store.

 

But I'm like you, I always thought it would be great to combine exercise with something you have to do every day anyway. Most people in the US lack either time or motivation for exercising. Your idea sounds like it would give them both.

 

Let me know when your company goes public and I'll buy a dollar's worth of stock.

[drz]

lol, sure thing, thanks for the encouragement.

[Sayonara]

But basically, make a more effiecient bicycle. Of course, since most people lack balance, and bikes are dangerous on highways, it would be 4 wheeled, electrically assisted, possibly a small engine to serve as a generator.

You had better tell your marketing team to get a move on.

[Sayonara]

Oh, this just appeared on the Beeb and it seems slightly relevant:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3746554.stm

[drz]

that segway thing is pretty cool, but still not gonna put a dent in my plan.

 

Like, for instance, it appears you still have to plug it in. This will limit your distance, ride time, etc. Also, 20mph is too slow, and the center of gravity appears to be to funky to safely go much faster.

 

Unfortunately for me, I am my production team

[Sayonara]

Like, for instance, it appears you still have to plug it in. This will limit your distance, ride time, etc.

Maybe they will sell realllllly long power cables as optional extras.

[Aardvark]

'The cost of extracting, deriving and transporting oil-based fuels will make them a non-viable source of energy long before it's all gone.' Sayonara.

 

 

The stone age did not end because we ran out of stones.

[Sayonara]

The stone age did not end because we ran out of stones.

What?