What Is Your Perception of Germany?

[lamp]

I'd like to ask what your perception of Germany is and please don't be too optimistic with the typical "hard workers" and "always on time".

 

I personally have the feeling that Germany is perceived not as good from the outside world and it definitely does not belong to the top countries people favor. Germany has as well a lot of emigrants since Germany's population went down about a few millions.

 

What do you think?

[ajb]

Germany has been the source of a lot of, lets say difficulties in the 20th century and these have consequences today. People do not easily forget and I think it will still be a while before Germany will escape its past.

 

I will not name names, but I recall one Russian person I know being somewhat offended when it was suggested that he might be of German decent. He just missed the war, but is old enough to have lived through its consequences on the Russian people.

[Moontanman]

One of my sons went to school for a couple of semesters in Germany and then went there as part of back packing across Europe, he said Germany was a very friendly place.

[CaptainPanic]

They're my neighbors, and I've been to Germany quite a few times.

 

My perception is that they're nice neighbors who - as a nation - have their hearts in the right place. They seem to prioritize the right things, and in many ways I agree with their way of running things. I realize very well that Germany is a major player in the world economy, and I am happy that they are. I think they play their role in the world's political theatre exemplary now.

I do not think about WWII anymore, although joking about the Germans is always funny, especially when we meet them in a football worldcup or European cup.

We should never forget the wars (WWI and WWII), but we shouldn't hold current generations responsible for mistakes in the past.

 

On a more personal level, I think Germans are quite polite. I enjoy visiting Germany and I enjoy meeting Germans. I enjoy not-mentioning-the-war. The nightlife in the larger cities is awesome (Hamburg and Berlin especially). Girls are quite pretty too

[Marat]

I spent about a decade of my life in Germany, and I arrived as an absolute teutonophobe, so I was strongly disposed to like it. Unfortunately, I found the place nearly unendurable, largely because of the people, who are the most violent and rude in everyday interaction with each other that I have ever seen (and I have lived and worked in seven different countries). I found that even for a simple shopping trip, you had to armor yourself psychologically in advance to endure the browbeating you would have to experience from every shopkeeper, taxi driver, post office official, customs agent, and fellow passenger on a bus or subway. Everywhere there were memorials proclaiming that 'War Will Never Arise Again from German Soil!' but it seemed as though Hitler had split into 80 million pieces at his death and had been reincarnated as the now profoundly politically correct, left-wing, green, and pacifist German people, who had conserved and transformed Nazi hatred from wars of aggression into an everyday mode of interaction.

 

The country was also ridiculously bureaucratic, not to promote rationality, but instead to allow the government to dominate people's lives and to slow things down for no better reason than a kind of delight in perverse inefficiency for its own sake. You can't name your children anything you want, but instead you need prior government approval; you can't move into a new town without reporting your name and address to the police within seven days; you can starve to death on a weekend because the government wants all the stores to close, even though the people don't; you can't go anywhere without official identity papers in your pocket, just so the police show off their old movie imitation by stopping you and saying, "Papers please!!" Ugh, what a suffocating place!

 

On the plus side, the cultural level of the country was much higher than that in North America. People actually go to public lecture series in various academic topics at the Urania institute, and large numbers of people pay high prices for this experience. Television programs are also much more intellectual, and commercial interferences are minimal. University education and public healthcare are a right, not a privilege of those with money. Public transportation is excellent, and if you want to travel from a smallish town like Oberhausen to a major city like Duesseldorf at 2 AM, you can always find a quick train available for a cheap price. There are fascinating cultural treasures like palaces, museums, art galleries, and first-class academic libraries around every corner, although there is so much construction going on all the time it looks as though the war is still going on.

 

The women are also extremely friendly, though the downside of that is that they remain extremely friendly with everyone even after you have begun a serious relationship with them. They have a distinctively attractive, vulpine look, which makes them appear sly and seductive, and their look is so emphatically German that they almost don't need a passport to establish their citizenship, and many men may find that a plus.

[lamp]

The country was also ridiculously bureaucratic, not to promote rationality, but instead to allow the government to dominate people's lives and to slow things down for no better reason than a kind of delight in perverse inefficiency for its own sake. You can't name your children anything you want, but instead you need prior government approval; you can't move into a new town without reporting your name and address to the police within seven days; you can starve to death on a weekend because the government wants all the stores to close, even though the people don't; you can't go anywhere without official identity papers in your pocket, just so the police show off their old movie imitation by stopping you and saying, "Papers please!!" Ugh, what a suffocating place!

 

I agree with the first sentence, though I disagree with the examples, except of the one with the stores. There are much worse problems Germany has. Considering your examples how would it work without those rules, wouldn't it be a bit too chaotic?

[ajb]

you can't go anywhere without official identity papers in your pocket, just so the police show off their old movie imitation by stopping you and saying, "Papers please!!" Ugh, what a suffocating place!

 

Papiere bitte, schnell, schnell. Wir haben Möglichkeiten, Ihnen zu sprechen!

[mississippichem]

Papiere bitte, schnell, schnell. Wir haben Möglichkeiten, Ihnen zu sprechen!

 

spreken ze deutsch ajb? Ich habe Vokabular, aber wenig Grammatik

Edited July 6, 2011 by mississippichem

[timo]

I don't want to derail this thread, but since Marat's time in Germany has obviously been a few years ago, here's a small update:

You can starve to death on a weekend because the government wants all the stores to close

Opening times have extended significantly within the last 10-15 years. They are not as customer friendly as in many other countries, but even in the worst case (Sundays or around midnight) you'll at least find a gas station that's open and sells food. Standard opening hours for supermarkets are something like Monday-Saturday, 8:00-22:00.

 

Television programs are also much more intellectual, and commercial interferences are minimal.

That has changed a lot. Intellectual level nowadays ranges from "braindead" (private channels) to "average pensioneer" (public channels). Commercials range from "whole channel is a commercial" (shopping channels, so-called music channels) over 3 commercial blocks per 20 minute episode of Simpsons (private channels) to "annoying" (public channels). At least the public channels are forbidden to show commercials after 20:00, but "the weather is presented by xyz bank" messages still appear and annoy.

Edited July 6, 2011 by timo

[ajb]

spreken ze deutsch ajb? Ich habe Vokabular, aber wenig Grammatik

 

Nein, aber ich kann die Verwendung von Google übersetzen. Tut mir leid, Sie enttäuschen.

[thinker_jeff]

I like the discussion because I have never been there yet.

[Stefan-CoA]

spreken ze deutsch ajb? Ich habe Vokabular, aber wenig Grammatik

 

Und auch sehr wenig Vokabular. Es heisst, "Sprechen sie Deutsch?".

 

My background is German although I've never been there I am the grand-son of emmigrants (to the then South-West Africa, now Namibia). My parents and myself as well as the few German friends I have discuss this very-same topic rather often.

 

Our perception of Germany is a sad one. Germany was once a proud nation, years ago being German meant something. Nowadays Germans are so cowed by the specter of naziism that they are a nation very much afraid of anything. Even on a personal level, this specter is there. Sure, English folk think it's a big joke accusing us of being nazis at every turn, but being associated with such a horrid period in history is not really the greatest. What irks me though is that people can't let go of it. It's been nearly 70 years and people are still afraid that somehow Germany will rise up again. It feels sometimes that those Germans not born in Germany are more proud of the fact than the natives. If Germany does even the slightest thing untoward, nations rise up claiming naziism again. Fair enough, there may be a lot of problems, and going into them would require a thread each.

 

But the general perception is that yeah Germans are an industrious, resilient folk with a knack for engineering and manufacturing. Yet they are also a cowed people, afraid to do anything spectacular. I doubt that if, for example; Germany went around the world crusading for "freedom and democracy" as America currently is, they would be perceived as favourably.

 

I'm not quite sure if I'm getting my point across as this topic cuts quite close to the mark.

[lamp]

But the general perception is that yeah Germans are an industrious, resilient folk with a knack for engineering and manufacturing. Yet they are also a cowed people, afraid to do anything spectacular. I doubt that if, for example; Germany went around the world crusading for "freedom and democracy" as America currently is, they would be perceived as favourably.

This sentence sounds as if the US is perceived as favorable for that. Perhaps I misunderstood it. (?)

 

Though, I think I get what you're trying to say. Germans often like to play safe and never risk anything. To even add my own perception they also often have a facade which looks serious to the outside but is the opposite behind the facade.

 

 

[Athena]

They're my neighbors, and I've been to Germany quite a few times.

 

My perception is that they're nice neighbors who - as a nation - have their hearts in the right place. They seem to prioritize the right things, and in many ways I agree with their way of running things. I realize very well that Germany is a major player in the world economy, and I am happy that they are. I think they play their role in the world's political theatre exemplary now.

I do not think about WWII anymore, although joking about the Germans is always funny, especially when we meet them in a football worldcup or European cup.

We should never forget the wars (WWI and WWII), but we shouldn't hold current generations responsible for mistakes in the past.

 

On a more personal level, I think Germans are quite polite. I enjoy visiting Germany and I enjoy meeting Germans. I enjoy not-mentioning-the-war. The nightlife in the larger cities is awesome (Hamburg and Berlin especially). Girls are quite pretty too

 

 

The US has imitated Germany in every significant way. It adopted the German model of bureaucracy, which is Prussian military bureaucracy applied to citizens, and is what makes national programs like Social Security and Worker's Compensation possible. Germany being the first to have a national pension program and worker's compensation. The US stopped short of having a national medical plan and I do not think this speaks well of the US. Moving along...

 

Perhaps most importantly, the US adopted the German model of education for technology for military and industrial purpose. We should have paid more attention to Eisenhower when he explained the Military/Industrial Complex and mentioned how this would effect our lives. When we implemented the 1958 National Defense Education Act, we stopped transmitting our culture and seem to have experienced the same culture changes that occurred in Germany when the Prussians took control of Germany.

 

Of course we have the Germans to thank for our CIA and the missiles that became our space program, after the USSR put a satilite around the earth. Eisenhower took lessons from the Germans when he created the new government links with research and the media, and Reagan and Bush used these for political purpose, involving using military force to protect our "economic interest", something Germans regret doing and say they will not do again.

 

What should we think of the Germans considering our imitation of them and the Bush family's pride in leading the New World Order? We demilitarized after every war, except the Korean war, when Eisenhower made the Military Industrial Complex a permanent factor in our lives. Oh, by the way, the eugenics that were the horror of NAZI German, began in the US and was picked up by Hitler. Germany was a Christian Republic and the US is a Christian Republic. Our schools no longer transmit the culture that made us different, so what do we think makes us different from Germany now?

 

Marat, you can no longer ride the Grey Hound without state approved ID. To get my driver's license I had to have a state approved birth certificate and certified marriage license or divorce papers. The US is not the democracy we defended in two world wars.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Athena

[JohnB]

I haven't been there so I can only comment from the Germans I've met. I've employed and worked with quite a number over the years, backpackers mostly.

 

They seem to be very nice people, great for a joke and a laugh and good to work with. If the young ones who come down under are indicitive of the German people and nation, then they are a pretty decent bunch.

 

But please, get over the "shame" thing, it was 70 years ago. I do wonder if germans worry more about what others might think if they asserted themselves, rather than what others would really think. If you get my meaning.

[CaptainPanic]

Although you do need to carry ID at all times (also in most other EU countries, not just Germany), it's also allowed to cross borders at 120 km/h without even being checked by border guards. You can drive from almost any neighboring country of Germany, straight through Germany, into another neighboring country, and you never even have to stop. It's the Schengen agreement that allows this. I've been on weekend trips in Germany where I have never shown my ID. Not going into the country. Not when doing any shopping or partying. Not when going home. So, I am not sure where your idea comes from that Germany is such a police state.

 

Athena, are you comparing the current situation in the USA to Germany prior to WWII? Or are you comparing it to modern Germany?

 

It's funny to read a number of issues that you guys all have with Germany that apply directly to at least a number of other European countries as well.

[CharonY]

I have lived in Germany up until a few years ago, the shame thingy does not pervade the personal interaction part that much anymore (especially not in the newer generation), but is still a factor in politics (which of course is dominated by elder people).

Being a foreigner in US as well as in Germany there is not that much of a difference in bureaucracy. One main differences is that in Germany they expect you to understand all the finer points of German laws (but are peeved if you point out where they are wrong) in the US essentially nobody knows how things are supposed to be and if all goes wrong it is your fault.

 

I found the distinct lack of strong (outward) nationalism quite liberating on the hand, but there are other elements which are kind of used instead of that. For instance the insistence that German culture is based on christian values, which is but an empty phrase to exclude certain parts of the population (i.e. mostly muslims). Being an atheist is absolutely fine, though. I never understood the concept of being proud of ones heritage, instead of ones own deeds, though.

[Marat]

The identification of contemporary Germany with its Nazi past in foreign countries is both absurd and persistent. The national ideology of Germany today is extreme pacifism, and yet there are still fools like Jack Straw who stood up and railed about the danger of German troops on the march in his speech in the House of Commons when German reunification was being considered. The fact that countries without nuclear weapons are not in much of a position to threaten anyone anymore, to say nothing of the profoundly anti-Nazi ideology of modern Germany, seems to have been noticed by no one outside Germany.

 

Another perhaps outdated perception I have of Germany from when I lived there is that it was surprisingly technologically backward. There was, for example, a bank of telephones near the Zoologischer Garten subway stop and a group of street urchins equipped with twisted pieces of metal used to hang around it to pluck the coins out of the phones, since on every second try at a phone call the coins would get stuck and the tourists didn't have the technique to get them out again. Couldn't the Germans even make a working coin-operating telephone?

 

In contrast, when I was living in Cambridge, England, there were three public phones for a town of 100,000, and just as I was moving out the city decided to remove one of them because they thought three was too many -- but England is another story...

[imatfaal]

Do you have a citation/date for the Jack Straw speech? - I would be most interested to read it.

[Marat]

Jack Straw's impassioned speech in the House occurred just about the time that the German reunification was being negotiated with Gorbachov, but I can't remember the exact date.

[imatfaal]

Marat - Hansard doesn't list Jack Straw speaking at all on German Reunification. He was Shadow Education Sec at the time so it would have been out of his realm. Are you sure you meant Jack Straw?

[Athena]

The identification of contemporary Germany with its Nazi past in foreign countries is both absurd and persistent. The national ideology of Germany today is extreme pacifism, and yet there are still fools like Jack Straw who stood up and railed about the danger of German troops on the march in his speech in the House of Commons when German reunification was being considered. The fact that countries without nuclear weapons are not in much of a position to threaten anyone anymore, to say nothing of the profoundly anti-Nazi ideology of modern Germany, seems to have been noticed by no one outside Germany.

 

Another perhaps outdated perception I have of Germany from when I lived there is that it was surprisingly technologically backward. There was, for example, a bank of telephones near the Zoologischer Garten subway stop and a group of street urchins equipped with twisted pieces of metal used to hang around it to pluck the coins out of the phones, since on every second try at a phone call the coins would get stuck and the tourists didn't have the technique to get them out again. Couldn't the Germans even make a working coin-operating telephone?

 

In contrast, when I was living in Cambridge, England, there were three public phones for a town of 100,000, and just as I was moving out the city decided to remove one of them because they thought three was too many -- but England is another story...

 

 

Interesting, the US has imitated Germany in every significant way, and you say "The identification of contemporary Germany with its Nazi past in foreign countries is both absurd and persistent. " Imitation is the highest compliment! The Bush family proudly boosted about leading the New World Order, and is there any doubt about the US using its national wealth for military purpose, and defending its economic interesting around the world? The Germans are now strongly opposed to war for economic reasons. And the citizens of the US are as blind to the Military Industrial Complex that effects every aspect of their lives, as the Germans were blind to what was happening in their country when the Prussians took charge.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Athena

[TonyMcC]

I 1956 ( only 11 years afterthe end of WW II) I was posted to an airfield near Schleswig in North Germany. I mixed freely with other people of my age including young German servicemen. I used to go dancing and soon had a German girlfriend who introduced me to her family. Everybody I came into contact with were friendly and I never felt threatened in any way. On many occasions I would walk through the town and out into the countryside to get back to my base in the early hours without a qualm. The ordinary German people I came into contact with were certainly as friendly and as civilised as English people. There was one exception - they did not seem to understand waiting in a queue for anything, such as getting on a bus!

Edited July 13, 2011 by TonyMcC

[michel123456]

Interesting that no native German seems to be member of this Forum.

[timo]

Interesting that no native German seems to be member of this Forum.

There is. I even posted in this thread. And I quite enjoy reading it, btw.

 

TonyMcC: you are being ironic about the Englishmen being notorious line-standers, are you? There actually is a (German?) joke about an Englishman at a bus station telling the German who arrives after him: "excuse me sir, this is a line".