China -- the next superpower?

[Aardvark]

As for the America' date=' many American think Iraq war was a mistake, did the government really pull out the troops? U.S. has now occupied Iraq, Afganistan, Germany, Japan, South Korea. And someone says the next target is Iran. you says America does many good things also. what the good things you are talking about? trying to establish United States of the Earth?[/quote']

 

This is a discussion about China not the USA. Making weird assertions such as the USA 'occupying Germany' is irrelevant nonsense.

 

I note that you haven't been able to respond to the points i made in post 70.

[john5746]

As for the America, many American think Iraq war was a mistake, did the government really pull out the troops? U.S. has now occupied Iraq, Afganistan, Germany, Japan, South Korea. And someone says the next target is Iran. you says America does many good things also. what the good things you are talking about? trying to establish United States of the Earth?

 

Well, Japan and Germany are doing well aren't they? And Chinese aren't speaking Japanese, French and British aren't speaking German. South Korea is doing much better than North Korea.

 

America gives aid to Africa, and helps other third world countries. Its citizens also freely participate in charity.

 

Many countries don't need to spend nearly as much on a military due to big brother being around.

 

If China could have defeated Japan, I don't think they would have let them be a sovereign country afterwards...

 

I obviously don't know as much about China or chinese as you, only the ones I have met here and the media. I have a deep respect for Chinese and asian culture. If the Chinese people had a say as to the leadership of their country, then I would have more respect for the Chinese government.

 

As with the US, this wouldn't guarantee perfection, but I think it would help.

[Aardvark]

America gives aid to Africa' date=' and helps other third world countries. Its citizens also freely participate in charity.

 

Many countries don't need to spend nearly as much on a military due to big brother being around.[/quote']

 

John5746, i agree with the basic thrust of what you are saying, but letting this thread degenerate into a crude 'my country is better than your country' argument is a mistake.

 

Yang_du has reacted to criticism of the current Chinese regime by attacking the USA rather than trying to actually defend/discuss China, which is what this thread is about. Don't indulge such childish tactics.

[Guest yang_du]

the point i'm trying to make here is : for many things, there is no right or wrong. you can't say something is bad or good based on your opinion. you can find out this in many cases in history.

 

I'm a Chinese, and i'm great respect to my government, to my leader, to my people, and to the fact i'm been a Chinese. I guess it's all the same for Aardvark and john5746. we all give the opinions based on our nationalities. we all right for a sense. but when i say U.S. is doing something, someone says i'm attacking U.S. what a prejudgement. I just wanna point out U.S. is doing something that no one can say it's good or wrong. It's all the same for China. When Chinese government doing something, you think it's bad, you think Chinese people should have freedom as much as American people do, or something else. Aardvark, you don't understand China, u don't understand Chinese people or its history. all the Chinese government do, is good for China. people may not see it now, but we will see it later. If China is rising, and Chinese people are getting richer than before, then it's on a right path.

 

to Aardvark, why not telling me where you come from. fearing to see i say your country something? then stop talking about China.

[Aardvark]

the point i'm trying to make here is : for many things' date=' there is no right or wrong. you can't say something is bad or good based on your opinion. you can find out this in many cases in history.

 

Aardvark, you don't understand China, u don't understand Chinese people or its history. all the Chinese government do, is good for China.

 

to Aardvark, why not telling me where you come from. fearing to see i say your country something? then stop talking about China.[/quote']

 

yang_du

 

The idea that there is no right or wrong does not make sense. When governments act they have many choices. Some are right choices, some are wrong choices. Anyone can look and make reasoned judgements.

 

How do you know i don't understand China its history or people? That sounds like a baseless insult rather than genuine debate. If my opinions or facts are wrong them please point the errors out. And the idea that everything the Chinese government does is good for China is , pardon me for bluntness, deeply stupid. No government in the world is or every has been perfect. Even a patriotic loyal supporter of the communist party of the peoples republic of China can acknowledge that.

 

As for my not telling you where i am from. If you can give a good reason why i should tell you then i happily will. I just can't see how my nationality has any relevance to this discussion.

 

Don't tell me to stop talking about China. This is a discussion forum. If you don't like the free exchange of ideas and information you shouldn't be here, not me.

 

I'm still waiting for you response to post 70. If i really have no understanding of China it should be easy enough to answer. Or perhaps you just prefer to indulge in insults?

[Guest yang_du]

I said before, the information you got about China was wrong. i don't want to waste any more time on such kind of people.

[Aardvark]

I said before, the information you got about China was wrong. i don't want to waste any more time on such kind of people.

 

You haven't pointed out a single mistake in my information.

 

Seems like you're just not prepared be enter a genuine discussion. Pathetic really.

[Artorius]

the point i'm trying to make here is : for many things' date=' there is no right or wrong. you can't say something is bad or good based on your opinion. you can find out this in many cases in history.

 

I'm a Chinese, and i'm great respect to my government, to my leader, to my people, and to the fact i'm been a Chinese. I guess it's all the same for Aardvark and john5746. we all give the opinions based on our nationalities. we all right for a sense. but when i say U.S. is doing something, someone says i'm attacking U.S. what a prejudgement. I just wanna point out U.S. is doing something that no one can say it's good or wrong. It's all the same for China. When Chinese government doing something, you think it's bad, you think Chinese people should have freedom as much as American people do, or something else. Aardvark, you don't understand China, u don't understand Chinese people or its history. all the Chinese government do, is good for China. people may not see it now, but we will see it later. If China is rising, and Chinese people are getting richer than before, then it's on a right path.

 

to Aardvark, why not telling me where you come from. fearing to see i say your country something? then stop talking about China.[/quote']

If you respect your country,leader so much and like your countrymen are proud of all the achievements of your gvernment.Then why dont they offer elections.Surely they cannot be afraid of democracy you would all vote them back in again wouldnt you.Unfortunately the west can see the properganda machine in operation,you are obviously brainwashed into a belief system were you no longer have to ask questions only do as you are told.Your govn fines you for having children and you cannot see anything wrong with that.Your govn tells you there is not any political prisons in their millions,and you believe them....China has a great history...before communism...

[Guest yang_du]

Aardvark, I can see u don't like China, u hate Chinese, and its government. hate to see China is rising. however, if u don't like it to happen, no matter where u come from, come to fight us. i mean to wage a war. This is where all the wars come from. when two countries can't agree with each other. they have a fight to see who wins. Usually the stronger one wins. and the weaker one has to admit the reality. That's what i mean there's no right or wrong. In nature, when predator preys, do u think the predators are bad? they kill other animals. and that's how they become stronger. In human's world, it's all the same. only the stronger nations have the rights to live. the weaker ones, they will disappear sooner or later. i strongly recommend u read much history. you'll find many interesting points from reading the history.

[Guest yang_du]

Artorius, yes, u can say i'm brainwashed for whatever reason. and i can say u're brainwashed as well. i can see the U.S government trying control people's mind by a smarter way, the media.

the history of China and the western countries are different. we don't have elections for five thousand years. u think it's gonna work in China? what's democracy mean to you? it's all cold war results. U.S. government let you think democracy is the only way that human can live by. and u think that way. who is brainwashed?

I'm raised in a western culture enviroment, I used to believe democracy is what Chinese people have to do next. but after I read the history of China, and how China became nowadays. I strongly disagree that democracy will bring China anything good.

Now, I think history is the key to the future.

[Aardvark]

Aardvark, I can see u don't like China, u hate Chinese, and its government. hate to see China is rising. however, if u don't like it to happen, no matter where u come from, come to fight us. i mean to wage a war.

 

What a delightful invitation, thank you so much. However i am afraid i must decline.

 

You see i have a great love of Chinese culture and history. It is the current Chinese regime which i despise as a brutal aggressive bullying regime. Your attitude personifies that crass stupid arrogant aggression. China is an ancient civilisation, but its present regime, and you if judged by your last post, are acting like barbarians, not civilised people.

 

I have read lots of history, thank you for the suggestion anyway. My reading of history shows me that people and nations of your opinions suffer. The view that we must live in accordance to the law of the jungle and crush anyone weaker than ourselves was exemplefied by the Nazis. If you have read any history you will know what happened to them.

 

Personally i like to believe that we have risen above the law of the jungle, that is after all what being civilised means. I am feel sorry that i need to give lessons on the meaning of civilisation to someone from China. You should feel shame to hold such crass barbarous opinions.

 

Read your own history, China has been great when China has achieved its aims through the means of peace, not war. You have allowed yourself to be corrupted by hate filled propoganda.

[Artorius]

yang du dont you want to be free...to use your own initiative ...your ideas...and ideals....we keep birds in cages not human spirits....Communism doesnt work my friend...ask the Russians...after all thats were you got it from....

[Guest yang_du]

civilised, well, America is a civilised country. by your terms, what U.S doing now is barbarous. Any country will wage a war for its own interest. I doubt u read as much chinese history as i do. u can't read chinese, and i guess all you read is from translation. I also sure u can't understand the true ideas behind chinese history, and what all its about. I recommend a book called 资治通鉴，i guess there's no english translation. it recorded one thousand years of chinese history. and I'm still reading it. around 5000 pages long.

[r1dermon]

of course he doesnt want to be free...he's a commy. his government tells him exactly what to do and he humbly agrees, because its the honorable thing to do. he doesnt want to be dis honored. look, "waging war" is a last resort. but obviously you chinese people dont see it that way. and i must admit, that my current government isnt exactly in that mindset either, however, i can already tell that you're an irresponsible person, simply because you think that if someone disagrees with you, you have to wage war with them...well check this out. japan already tried it with us, and look what happened to them...we were minding our business when they bombed us, and then they got blown to hell, would you like that for your country? i hardly think america is a country that you would look forward to "waging war" with. in fact, i bet you'd flea in the face of attack. only cowards go looking for war. especially for no reason.

[Artorius]

then you will have heard of Qin...all under one sun....and you will be appalled the way your present regime done away with your emperor...

[Guest yang_du]

Artorius, China is not a communism country anymore, although we still call it that way. the life now in china is not what you think. if u have chance, go there and take a look, and you'll see what i mean. it's all market oriented. people can say whatever they wish. as long as they don't organize a group that opposite the government or to publish a book saying everything bad about government.

[Aardvark]

I doubt u read as much chinese history as i do. u can't read chinese, and i guess all you read is from translation. I also sure u can't understand the true ideas behind chinese history, and what all its about.

 

You are right, i can not read Chinese, but if you think that the true ideas behind Chinese history are nations behaving like animals with the stronger devouring the weaker then i don't think you learned very much from your reading. That is not civilisation, that is barbarism.

[Artorius]

and r1dermon,no country in there right mind would wage war on communist china...there are too many of them...you would think they would show some gratitute for handing over hong kong...

[Guest yang_du]

then you will have heard of Qin...all under one sun....and you will be appalled the way your present regime done away with your emperor...

 

I don't understand whay u saying....

[Guest yang_du]

of course he doesnt want to be free...he's a commy. his government tells him exactly what to do and he humbly agrees, because its the honorable thing to do. he doesnt want to be dis honored. look, "waging war" is a last resort. but obviously you chinese people dont see it that way. and i must admit, that my current government isnt exactly in that mindset either, however, i can already tell that you're an irresponsible person, simply because you think that if someone disagrees with you, you have to wage war with them...well check this out. japan already tried it with us, and look what happened to them...we were minding our business when they bombed us, and then they got blown to hell, would you like that for your country? i hardly think america is a country that you would look forward to "waging war" with. in fact, i bet you'd flea in the face of attack. only cowards go looking for war. especially for no reason.

 

 

u didn't read my words, did u? my point is the later part.

[Guest yang_du]

You are right, i can not read Chinese, but if you think that the true ideas behind Chinese history are nations behaving like animals with the stronger devouring the weaker then i don't think you learned very much from your reading. That is not civilisation, that is barbarism.

 

civilisation is about culture, about the way people live, and about how they think. nobody wants war, but sometimes it's the only way to defend yourself.

[Aardvark]

civilisation is about culture, about the way people live, and about how they think. nobody wants war, but sometimes it's the only way to defend yourself.

 

'Nobody wants war' You invited me to come to China and fight a war against you. You have argued that countries are like animals which must fight and kill each other. Or were these simply comments made in anger at the mistaken idea that i hate China and the Chinese?

 

I agree that sometimes war is the only war to defend yourself, my qualms are with the aggressive and unnecessary wars the current Chinese regime has indulged in.

 

The invasion and occupation of Tibet and the invasion of Vietnam were not required for defence, they were acts of aggression. My arguments are with the current regime in China which acts in a barbarous, aggressive fashion.

 

Wanting China to be strong is good, but using that as an excuse for the regimes brutality and needless aggression is mistaken.

[Sayonara]

Yang_du, if you're such a loyal supporter of the Chinese government, then why are you posting here from a computer in Canada?

[Ophiolite]

I'm arriving mid-argument and haven't read all the posts, so if I go over old ground my apologies.

Yang du, you commented that what the US is doing now is barbarous. I presume you are talking mainly about Iraq. There are many in the US who would agree with you. There are many other posters on this board who would agree with you. Some might feel, as I do, that under its present regime the US is further from its ideals than it has been for a long time. That does not make its ideals wrong, it means that some of them have, apparently, been temporarily abandoned.

Aardvark has been critical of the present government in China. I sense in that criticism a genuine love of China, its history and culture and people.

I also sense that all of you have been making your case a little more strongly than you actually feel it.

Yang du, you say that a western style democracy is not right for China today. Do you feel that there will ever be right time? How can you ensure that an undemocratic government does not ignore the needs of the people? Would you agree that this has occured on occasions since the revolution?

[r1dermon]

also, you completely just contradicted yourself.... "nobody wants war, but sometimes it's the only way to defend yourself."

 

this quote shows that you're agreeing with me that war is a last resort, and only necessary when you need to defend yourself. however..... "only the stronger nations have the rights to live. the weaker ones, they will disappear sooner or later." it doesnt really matter does it, because you believe in natural sele.....oops, no you dont...you said only the stronger nations have the RIGHTS to live?? well, who are you? are you the governing counsil of the world? do you dictate which countries have rights? that was a pretty arrogant and unintelligent comment, but there's more to your contradiction. "no matter where u come from, come to fight us. i mean to wage a war." now lets put that and your first quote together....we can see that you're a contradiction machine, and you really have no idea as to what you're talking about. history is to be learned from, not duplicated. if you stay in the past, there is no future for you or your country.

 

also, there is no country on earth with the military capabilities of the US, i'd say if china wanted a fight, then the US would be happy to oblige. so would bush, it would take the focus off of all the stupidity in iraq.