Why do SO many Americans hate communism?

[swansont]

Americans hate communism (and love capitalism) because we've been conditioned to do so. The USSR was our enemy and they were equated with communism, ergo communism is bad. The Red Scare. Details and facts are relatively unimportant when it comes to propaganda.

 

I seriously doubt that all of the people that recoil at the word "communism" (or socialism) actually understand what it entails, and if you described it without using the word, there would be far less of a negative reaction. No small part of this would be that the USSR was not truly communist, and that the USA is not unfettered capitalism.

[SlavicWolf]

You have to consider the fact that in every place taken over by communism, it's casualties were counted in millions or dozens of millions. No other ideology has spilled so much blood and brought so much misery upon people in such a short period of time (maybe National Socialism)

[CharonY]

Is it the ideology or the authoritarian dictatorship? If we talk about casualties relative to the world population (a fair measure if we want to look back into history) we could for instance look at the famous An Lushan rebellion (uprising against the Tang dynasty in China. During the course of about 10 years somewhere up to 30 million people died (lowest estimates are around 10-15 million) which amounts up to 15% of the total world population at that time.

Or the takeover of the Ming dynasty by the Qing with over 25 million deaths (ca. 5% of world population, though it admittedly took something like 50 years).

 

And these are only examples from wars in China (as I happen to have books within reach). I think you underestimate the abilities of human to decimate each other regardless of philosophy, religion, ideology or economic system.

Edited March 7, 2014 by CharonY

[Endy0816]

That was more the fault of the party dictatorships than the economic system. Typically they bastardize their economic system into one with the State running and owning everything. That isn't what communism was originally envisioned as.

 

There are a number of examples out there, communes, monasteries, co-ops, where the sharing of resources and mutual decision making have worked out quite well for the participants. Even the employee owned company could be considered a form.

 

edit: CharonY beat me to it

[swansont]

You have to consider the fact that in every place taken over by communism

 

What places are these? Because odds are they got the label, but were communist in name only.

[SlavicWolf]

As far as I know there are hardly any examples of communist communities that have survived and prospered on their own. Robert Owen tried to create a communist colony in the US and it collapsed in a few years. Others disintegrated within 2-3 generations.

 

What the communist parties all around the world did was a direct consequence of what Marx and Engels (and later Lenin) taught. A notion that there is a constant class warfare with all means necessary that a large group of people called capitalists must be eliminated and that the members of the working class who think otherwise are enemies of the people who are in denial leads directly to a catastrophe. Every society must be based on freedom. Any attempts to forcibly create an ideal society will fail.

 

Also note the communist belief (that's what it is... belief) that all people must work for the "common well being of the society" is an absurd. Society is a distributive set so a collection of all humans being isn't a human being so there is no such thing as common good or something like that. There are just interests of individuals.

[swansont]

IOW, there are no true communist states. So how can you blame communism for certain evils when the regimes committing atrocities are not communist systems and these evils are present in other political systems as well?

[Delta1212]

Americans hate Communism because our rival and Cold War enemy the USSR claimed communism as its ideology of choice. Full Stop. The philosophical merits (or lack thereof) are really beside the point because most people in this country don't even know what communism is let alone why it does or doesn't work.

 

I've literally had this conversation:

"Aren't Al-Qaeda communist?"

"Do you know what a communist is?"

"Someone who hates America, right?"

 

And from what I've seen, that's representative of a fair portion of the population.

[SlavicWolf]

IOW, there are no true communist states. So how can you blame communism for certain evils when the regimes committing atrocities are not communist systems and these evils are present in other political systems as well?

These evils are present in other TOTALITARIAN systems, right. But how would you explain the fact that the more countries identified themselves with communism, the more brutal they were? Why was it that countries that weren't based at communism at all (Western Europe, USA etc) were richer and far more free than the ones that had communism as their official ideology (USSR, PRC) Were Western countries closer to communism than them?

 

Every communist society must first answer the question how to deal with those who don't want communism. But this question has been answered a long time ago.

[CharonY]

Per definitionem all third world countries were not aligned with communism. I have not heard that they all of them were automatically more free and prosperous. One might think that there are more things going on.

[overtone]

 

 

What the communist parties all around the world did was a direct consequence of what Marx and Engels (and later Lenin) taught. A notion that there is a constant class warfare with all means necessary that a large group of people called capitalists must be eliminated and that the members of the working class who think otherwise are enemies of the people who are in denial leads directly to a catastrophe

- - - -

These evils are present in other TOTALITARIAN systems, right. But how would you explain the fact that the more countries identified themselves with communism, the more brutal they were? Why was it that countries that weren't based at communism at all (Western Europe, USA etc) were richer and far more free than the ones that had communism as their official ideology (USSR, PRC)

That's why Americans reflexively express hatred for "communism" - they don't know any history or economics, and they don't know what communism is (Marx and Engels "taught" no such thing).

 

Americans think "communism" is a name for State totalitarian government. They think it is synonymous with socialism. Christian Americans don't even recognize it in their own Bible.

 

Examples of comparably successful and comparably prosperous communist societies are all over the place - the first few hundred years of Christianity (when many adherents actually set up their communities on Biblical recommendations) provide innumerable examples at local scale, as do the stone age cultures of North America (known for their personal freedoms, btw), the various (mostly Christian) reasonably durable collectives in pioneer North America (Mennonites particularly interesting in this regard), and so forth.

 

Even some modern totalitarian ones with all the evils of modern totalitarian government, like China or Russia or Cuba after their Revolutions, were notably better societies for most people to live in than comparable capitalist neighbors (Haiti, say) or the societies they replaced (Tsarist Russia, colonial China).

 

The example of Cuba is perhaps the most striking, because its achievements were in the face of unrelenting hostility and severe inflicted damage from the most powerful nation on the planet, 90 miles of ocean away.

 

The fact that no one has yet scaled up communist economic organization to State level without imposing tyranny serves a warning to Utopians, but a sober assessment of competing economic structures prevents one from claiming the matter settled.

[SlavicWolf]

Wrong... USSR and PRC did develop but the costs of massive loss of life. And the result wasn't even close to what might have been achieved had these countries remained capitalist.

 

For example in 1970 North Korean GDP per capita was on par than that of South Korea

Today North Korean GDP per capita is roughly 15 times LOWER than that of South Korea

 

In 1990 (right after communism) Polish GDP per capita was 30% of that of Germany

Now Polish GDP per capita is more than 50% of German one.

 

etc. etc.

 

I don't have data for most of the cold war era.

Edited March 8, 2014 by SlavicWolf

[DimaMazin]

 

 

For example in 1970 North Korean GDP per capita was on par than that of South Korea

Today North Korean GDP per capita is roughly 15 times LOWER than that of South Korea

 

 

Crimean GDP per capita grows with Russian help ,but it is temporary phenomenon.

[SlavicWolf]

BTW:

Socialist India, Pakistan and Bangladesh vs capitalist South Korea. GDP per capita as % of USA's:

Edited March 9, 2014 by SlavicWolf

[swansont]

BTW:

Socialist India, Pakistan and Bangladesh vs capitalist South Korea. GDP per capita as % of USA's:

And this is supposed to mean what, exactly?

[SlavicWolf]

That countries which initially have very similar economies will have very different outcomes once one chooses free market and another one chooses command economy.

 

Before the free market reform of early 1990s Indian economy grew by average 3% annually. Now it has a growth rate of 6-8%/year. Had the reforms been deeper and they might have reached 12-15% annual growth rate.

 

Is the whole thing really so hard to grasp!?

[swansont]

That countries which initially have very similar economies will have very different outcomes once one chooses free market and another one chooses command economy.

 

Before the free market reform of early 1990s Indian economy grew by average 3% annually. Now it has a growth rate of 6-8%/year. Had the reforms been deeper and they might have reached 12-15% annual growth rate.

 

Is the whole thing really so hard to grasp!?

 

So there are absolutely no differences between these countries other than one set of economic policies?

[SlavicWolf]

There is a difference. However, there are countries that are culturally and demographically the same or very similar - North Korea and South Korea, West Germany and East Germany, China and Taiwan, Botswana and Zimbabwe etc. Even within a single country there are sharp differences between economic growth before liberalization and after - compare for example China in 1950-80 vs 1981-2013, India before and after 1990 etc. Even Somalia despite being in total anarchy has a 1-2% annual growth rate while in communist times it had a... negative growth. So much for the efficiency of the command economy - it has none. Some time ago I had a discussion with an apologist who said that the reason why communist economies fared so badly was that evil imperialist-capitalist West purposely issued embargo on them to suppress them. What he didn't know is that 1.- embargoes are always a double edged sword so the one who issues it loses as much, 2 - the Warsaw Pact market was as large as the western one.

[swansont]

I have yet to recognize any actual communist countries of those you've mentioned.

[CaptainPanic]

You have to consider the fact that in every place taken over by communism, it's casualties were counted in millions or dozens of millions. No other ideology has spilled so much blood and brought so much misery upon people in such a short period of time (maybe National Socialism)

 

Except (former) Yugoslavia, where the leader of the partisan independence movement Tito, who fought the Nazis, became the benevolent dictator, liked by many, and decorated by many - also Western countries. Yugoslavia was a communist country (peaceful), until the war broke out in 1991.

[Danijel Gorupec]

 

Except (former) Yugoslavia, where the leader of the partisan independence movement Tito, who fought the Nazis, became the benevolent dictator, liked by many, and decorated by many - also Western countries. Yugoslavia was a communist country (peaceful), until the war broke out in 1991.

 

Partially agree... we were a bit luckier than some others, but there was still more than enough blood.

 

For the original question "why do so many Americans hate communism?"... I am not sure if the question is related to hate that comes from 'fear of unknown' (fear for own sake), or is it related to hate/disgust because of what communism did to others. I think that both causes of hate are present in American society, possibly the former being much stronger cause in the beginning.

 

If an average American could better understand how economy and democracy works (from macroscopic perspective), instead of hate they would feel pity. They would realize that communism has no chance in relatively sound society of America.... or am I too naive?

[Endy0816]

I don't even see all that much "hate" for it here, on a regular basis. None of these oppressive regimes(in terms of pseudo-communism) happened here. Didn't get the brainwashing of the Cold War era. Mostly only ever see it come up is in some Politician's talking points(almost always a Republican).

 

ie. "Program X, is communistic and this is why I, Bob Everyman, stands against it!"

 

Bombastic bull crap. Nothing anyone with more than two brain cells should take seriously.

 

Broadly generalizing, I hear more raging about it from Eastern Europeans online than anywhere else. I understand where they are coming from. I can't imagine any amount of "that is not what Communism is actually about", would mean much to me if I had gone through what they and their families did.

 

From my POV the actual attempts have done well. Communal associations of free individuals pooling their talents and resources, to make themselves and likewise their communities better off.

 

 

 

If an average American could better understand how economy and democracy works (from macroscopic perspective), instead of hate they would feel pity. They would realize that communism has no chance in relatively sound society of America.... or am I too naive?

 

I think economic systems run more on inertia than anything else. Almost always takes a drastic regime change for something different to arise.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Endy0816

[SlavicWolf]

We in Central-Eastern Europe, have tasted what does communism (pseudo or not) bring. There simply isn't a single reason not to hate it - it brought years of economic stagnation that will take years to fix. All people looked at Western Europe with envy and wanted to have cars, houses, clothes, infrastructure etc. like them. Everyone who had a chance to flee, fled.

[overtone]

 

 

That countries which initially have very similar economies will have very different outcomes once one chooses free market and another one chooses command economy.

India is neither socialist nor communist, and does not have a command economy.

 

The economies of Bangladesh and Pakistan are not and never have been "very similar" to South Korea's, either.

 

 

 

We in Central-Eastern Europe, have tasted what does communism (pseudo or not) bring.

If you don't even care whether you are talking about communism or not, why use the term? There are good reasons to hate totalitarian States, oppressive and corrupt and incompetent central planning by distant authoritarians, but we see that kind of political evil in all kinds of economies - capitalist, socialist, feudal, communist, mercantile, whatever.

 

 

 

They would realize that communism has no chance in relatively sound society of America.... or am I too naive?

America is much more in danger from its native fascistic leanings than any leftwing authoritarianisms. You are talking about a country that is willing to pay double for modern medical care - 18 to 20 percent of its GDP as opposed to the standard 9 to 11 percent, and that from one of the highest per capita GDPs on the planet - to avoid even the appearance of providing that care to the community. The US has serious politicians in powerful governmental positions overtly refusing to regulate capitalist financiers, or even establish a government owned central oversight bank, in the aftermath of disastrous malfeasance and piracy, to avoid the mere appearance or accusation of communist tendency. That's not just talking anticommunism, that's putting your health and wealth where your mouth is.

[hd000]

generally Americans believe and generally love competition and a free market. Communism does not promote/stimulate creativity the way a free market does. Most Americans love the way our society operates currently and are threatened by any idea that may change a good thing.