Ancient Aliens

[dragonstar57]

has anyone seen this show Ancient Aliens? the show is about the idea that aliens have visited earth and assisted in construction of ancient buildings etc. and they provide enough evidence to make it sound like a sincere hypothesis but still sounds a lot like nonsense what do you all think?

[Realitycheck]

Just do the math (Drake Equation). Aside from the reality of that, the potential for interstellar travel between our closest stars is pretty dismal and essentially pointless, don't mean to sound like too much of a spoiler.

[Moontanman]

If aliens are visiting our solar system it's likely they have been here a long time, and IMHO have no use for planets other than asteroids and kuiper belt type objects, no need for FTL and the point would be what ever the aliens wanted it to be but the possibility exists. (guessing the motivations of aliens is yet another can of worms) I doubt they would help humans build anything and i have seen no evidence of this help, I am sure if you watch the show with some skepticism you will not see any either.

 

The Drake equation is meaningless if aliens do colonize other star systems. Using technology not much more advanced than we already have humans could, if they wanted, colonize the entire galaxy in a million years or so. (I've read estimates of 250,000 years to 25,000,000 years but either extreme is a blink of the cosmic "eye") We could do this and never set foot on an object big enough to be round by it's own gravity. Maybe they already have or do and keep quiet to not attract competition and simply do not use planets, especially planets with life that is potentially a harmful source of disease and parasites. Gravity wells are hard to transport things out of and all the materials needed to build colonies, which could double as slow boat type ships, are already in orbit around the stars, the ort cloud and kuiper belt are a vast source of everything any life forms could possibly want.

 

Why they would hide from us is a legitimate question and the best idea i have is that they are not hiding from us but use communication techniques designed to hide themselves from other civilizations that might compete with them in some way we have no concept of, noisy aliens might not survive as well as quiet ones. The only reason i can see for such aliens to have contact with us is to influence us in some way that is beneficial to them, i think quite possibly inspiring religion in us and using these differing religions to control and confuse us and to keep us fighting among our selves so we take a very long time to achieve enough cooperation between ourselves to begin to explore our own solar system and to colonize it the same way they are doing is a reasonable assumption.

 

I guess i went a little too far OT, sorry. But if you want we can continue on another thread, there are several similar ones already here or start a new one, i vote a new one but for sure watch the show, i am sure if you use a little bit of skepticism you'll see the alien part is mostly hype much like my assessment of aliens being here already. (but still a lot of fun to speculate about )

[alpha2cen]

has anyone seen this show Ancient Aliens? the show is about the idea that aliens have visited earth and assisted in construction of ancient buildings etc. and they provide enough evidence to make it sound like a sincere hypothesis but still sounds a lot like nonsense what do you all think?

 

Physically important thing is a existence of communication tool which is more fast than light. If the aliens were not space orphan, they would require to communicate with their native planet. If there were nothing faster than light, they would have no reason to come here.

Edited July 30, 2011 by alpha2cen

[Moontanman]

Physically important thing is a existence of communication tool which is more fast than light. If the aliens were not space orphan, they would require to communicate with their native planet. If there were nothing faster than light, they would have no reason to come here.

 

 

If they are bringing their entire culture with them, note that does not mean they bring everyone in their culture, why would FTL communication be necessary? If their reason to come here is to utilize the resources of the solar system to make more colony/ships and to spread to other stars and do the same why would they have to have FTL communication? When Europeans come to the western hemisphere messages to the home countries took years to make it back. Why would that be a bad thing for space travelers?

[alpha2cen]

If they are bringing their entire culture with them, note that does not mean they bring everyone in their culture, why would FTL communication be necessary? If their reason to come here is to utilize the resources of the solar system to make more colony/ships and to spread to other stars and do the same why would they have to have FTL communication? When Europeans come to the western hemisphere messages to the home countries took years to make it back. Why would that be a bad thing for space travelers?

 

Why does people go to the exploration? And how do they obtain instruments for their adventure? To go exploration we require much money , I think, the alien would have the same problems. To obtain such energy to travel between stars, much resources are needed. So the rest aliens which is in their planet requires get some benefits against their pains. Then what is that benefits, it would be an information about the unknown would. Without such benefits the rest aliens would not offer their energy resources. I think they would not do such meaningless thing, i.e., no communication exploration to unknown world.

Edited July 30, 2011 by alpha2cen

[michel123456]

has anyone seen this show Ancient Aliens? the show is about the idea that aliens have visited earth and assisted in construction of ancient buildings etc. and they provide enough evidence to make it sound like a sincere hypothesis but still sounds a lot like nonsense what do you all think?

 

Nonsense.

[ajb]

has anyone seen this show Ancient Aliens? the show is about the idea that aliens have visited earth and assisted in construction of ancient buildings etc. and they provide enough evidence to make it sound like a sincere hypothesis but still sounds a lot like nonsense what do you all think?

 

This is quite an old idea now. My personal thought is that by suggesting that aliens did it we take something away from the ingenuity and imagination of ancient peoples. One is appealing to some unsubstantiated entity to explain what we see. This is not really very scientific. The "aliens" are just a gap in our understanding of ancient peoples engineering skills and technology.

 

That said, I do think that if aliens are visiting today then we can surmise that they have visited earlier in our history and even before our appearance on Earth. Could we one day find a fossilised alien that died during the age of the dinosaurs? (Extremely unlikely even if plenty of aliens were here then given the slim chance of fossilisation of a corpse.) Could there be a crashed UFO frozen in a glacier or in the South Pole? (Not the Cybermen!)

 

Anyway, one can speculate and hypothesise as much as you like. With no tangible evidence this is all a bit of fun.

[dragonstar57]

the one compelling idea was that they discovered some kind of chemical in the pyramids suggesting hydrogen production had taken place there once (some salt residue) and that if u pumped some kind of chemicals in it would leave salt like that there. and the thing is I AM watching it in a skeptical way and it sounds like a valid hypothesis (not really enough evidence to prove it but enough to not sound like TOTAL BULL)

[Ringer]

the one compelling idea was that they discovered some kind of chemical in the pyramids suggesting hydrogen production had taken place there once (some salt residue) and that if u pumped some kind of chemicals in it would leave salt like that there. and the thing is I AM watching it in a skeptical way and it sounds like a valid hypothesis (not really enough evidence to prove it but enough to not sound like TOTAL BULL)

 

There could be any number of reasons that some salt residue may be in the pyramids, many of them much more probable than alien intervention.

 

 

ajb, I think the last of the cybermen were sucked into the void right before Rose was lost to another dimension. We should be safe. . . for now.

 

 

 

[ajb]

ajb, I think the last of the cybermen were sucked into the void right before Rose was lost to another dimension. We should be safe. . . for now.

 

These are the alternative universe cybermen, the true cybermen are out there. They are small in numbers and tend to hide away for a long time and hatch sneaky plans. We must always ensure we have ready supply of gold. Why do you think "private" goldsmiths are buying gold like there is no tomorrow? Is U.N.I.T. making gold based weapons?

[JohnB]

Like ajb said, this is a pretty old idea. The thing that separates different versions is how far you want to take it.

 

Visitors coming and giving basic advice of architecture, agriculture and animal husbandry are a far cry from Von Danikens "aliens did everything" (Which is really demeaning to those unknown ancient geniuses who did create new technologies).

 

The hypothesis is valid and there may be proof to help validate it, but the proofs are all archaeological and therefore open to interpretation. For example the "Bahgdad battery" could be evidence of alien teachings, or evidence of a human genius around 200BC or it could be something else entirely and we have misinterpreted what its purpose is.

 

Why they would help, if they did, is anybodys guess. We in the West try to help others improve their agriculture and standard of living, we help others who have problems, all without thought of reward. Maybe they are the same. Perhaps they have found that sentient life is rare in the Galaxy and feel it is their duty to help nurture it. Who knows? Speculation about the motives of a purely alien species cannot be more than speculation, at least until we get to sit down for a long chat with them.

 

The Drake equation is meaningless. Due to the inherent unknowns the equation can provide any probability from zero to one as to the likelihood of meeting another intelligence. I've always thought that Drake came up with it to demonstrate just how little we know and without knowledge of those factors in the equation, then any answer is possible. The Galaxy could be teeming with life or we might be alone, with the current state of our knowledge, both answers are (mathematically) equally likely.

 

By all means watch the show and be sceptical, but also be just as sceptical about objections to the hypothesis.

[ajb]

The hypothesis is valid and there may be proof to help validate it, but the proofs are all archaeological and therefore open to interpretation.

 

This is the key point. Experts in archaeology and history often disagree on thing that we know are Earthly. Adding "aliens did it" is going to be even more confusing!

 

But the hypothesis can be tested, so it is technically a scientific hypothesis, even if in most peoples opinion it is far fetched.

[JohnB]

"Far fetched" is perhaps where we differ ajb. I find the idea that "aliens did it" to be irritating and demeaning to our ancestors, but I find the idea of visitors or teachers to be not that "far fetched".

 

To really consider the idea as far fetched requires belief in one of two things, both of which I classify as "extraordinary claims". It must be believed that either;

 

1. We are alone in the Galaxy. I view this as "special pleading" for Earth. If it is accepted that neither the Sun nor Earth are special in any way, then it follows that there must be many other worlds with life. or

 

2. You must believe that our current understanding of the "Laws of Physics" is complete and correct. (At least in the basics) This belief is manifestly untrue.

 

Working from the basis that Earth is an average planet in development then there must be many others with life, couple that with some of them having an extra 10,000 years or a million years of research into physics and medicine it would be quite unusual to think that they haven't found some way around the relativity problem if they should so desire. Hence I don't find the idea far fetched. (I don't regard it as certain or proven though.)

[Edtharan]

Why they would help, if they did, is anybodys guess. We in the West try to help others improve their agriculture and standard of living, we help others who have problems, all without thought of reward. Maybe they are the same.

IF (and that is a big if) aliens are visiting us, then I think we will have to have certain traits in common.

 

For them to come to us, they must be a technological species. That is: They must have developed the ability to build machines and tools that would enable them to cross interstellar distances.

 

This means that they have to be a social species. No non-social species could build such devices. Even our modern (that is: non-hyper technology) takes millions of hours to go from raw materials to finished product (it is just that much of it can be done in parallel, but that requires a society working together).

 

Using game theory, you can show that certain behaviours (such as altruism and co-operation) are necessary for a stable society. This means that any alien that visits us must have been subject to these same evolutionary pressures and thus has some (but not all) mental traits in common with us (another would be language as you can't pass on the complex knowledge needed to build space ships without it).

 

I think that because of these traits we would have in common, it would be possible (but certainly hard) to communicate with an alien species and even share knowledge.

[himoura]

I really dig the ancient aliens show. I love the way archeological science is being turned upon it's head and rightly so. They have been lying to us and makin up rediculous theories for years. If the ancient aliens show proves anything its that our understanding of the history if this earth is completely absurd and needs to be rewritten.

 

I do not necessarily agree with the conclusions they come too on the show because they are wildly speculative but there is a wealth of information that is irrefutable that is finally filtering down to the general public.

 

Pyramids being found on the ocean floor all around Japan... Ancient cities off the coast of India dating back to the last ice age... Pumapunku (sp)... all the megaliths all over the world. Lake titticaca... Let's face it... Ancient humans did not build that stuff without help or simply didn't build it at all. That's total garbage. The roman empire showed us what ancient man was capable of moving and it was 300 tons tops. Anything over that is simply unexplainable.

 

And this isn't scientific but I'll say it.

 

I don't think it's aliens that are visiting us. If there is intelligent life in the universe then why can't we hear it? I mean how hard is it to make a point contact diode? Also the space travel problem is huge.

 

I have been saying for years... it's interdimensional beings. They have been living right on top of us all these years. It's the only thing that makes sense. We aren't being visited at all. We share our earth with them already.

[Realitycheck]

Actually, tops was about 800 tons. Temple of Jupiter at Baalbeck, Lebanon. Raised onto a 30 foot platform with an earthen ramp, most likely, though they gave up on the thousand ton block and left it sticking halfway out of the quarry.

[dragonstar57]

I really dig the ancient aliens show. I love the way archeological science is being turned upon it's head and rightly so. They have been lying to us and makin up rediculous theories for years. If the ancient aliens show proves anything its that our understanding of the history if this earth is completely absurd and needs to be rewritten.

 

I do not necessarily agree with the conclusions they come too on the show because they are wildly speculative but there is a wealth of information that is irrefutable that is finally filtering down to the general public.

 

Pyramids being found on the ocean floor all around Japan... Ancient cities off the coast of India dating back to the last ice age... Pumapunku (sp)... all the megaliths all over the world. Lake titticaca... Let's face it... Ancient humans did not build that stuff without help or simply didn't build it at all. That's total garbage. The roman empire showed us what ancient man was capable of moving and it was 300 tons tops. Anything over that is simply unexplainable.

 

And this isn't scientific but I'll say it.

 

I don't think it's aliens that are visiting us. If there is intelligent life in the universe then why can't we hear it? I mean how hard is it to make a point contact diode? Also the space travel problem is huge.

 

I have been saying for years... it's interdimensional beings. They have been living right on top of us all these years. It's the only thing that makes sense. We aren't being visited at all. We share our earth with them already.

it would be far more scientific to move to a hypothesis that these civilizations were just had superior technology (were a little smarter) than the Romans not to interdenominational beings.

[Atashi]

I've watched the series and i have to say that some of the data presented is rather mind boggling, but some ideas are just silly.

I have to agree that megalithic structures with that kind of precision would prove difficult even with today's technology. (perfectly placing and perfectly cutting 3tonne blocks, 5 blocks per min)

The transportation of the materials used when nothing else resembling that material is present.

The similarities in design and ratio of the aztec and egytian pyramids are also quite "extraterrestrial"

[himoura]

@Dragonstar57

 

That would be great if we could find their tools. That's the most puzzling part about it all. In most of the really puzzling sites we cannot find any of their tools. Besides especially at sites like Pumapunku the precision that is needed to make most those cuts rivals or exceeds our own technology. That means they needed advanced tools. Where are they??

 

It's so funny how archaeologists ascribe so much of this to people pulling these massive stone blocks with hundreds of ropes or pushing them with 50 pairs of hands. Or even chiseling precise cuts in stone with copper hammers and rocks. It's a joke man. The reason we know the Romans could pull 300 tons is because they invented the first wench. We found their tools scattered all over the site so we know and can prove what they were capable of. With the megaliths it's just unexplainable. We have no evidence of how they were built.

 

But yet modern day archeologists have put forth "accepted" theories about how these ruins were built and who built them with zero evidence lol.

 

Awesome. And now that we are finding cities that date back to the last ice age why should we believe anything the archeological community puts forth?? it's all crap lol. It's obvious they are just guessing and trying to write their names in the history books man.

[dragonstar57]

@Dragonstar57

 

That would be great if we could find their tools. That's the most puzzling part about it all. In most of the really puzzling sites we cannot find any of their tools. Besides especially at sites like Pumapunku the precision that is needed to make most those cuts rivals or exceeds our own technology. That means they needed advanced tools. Where are they??

 

It's so funny how archaeologists ascribe so much of this to people pulling these massive stone blocks with hundreds of ropes or pushing them with 50 pairs of hands. Or even chiseling precise cuts in stone with copper hammers and rocks. It's a joke man. The reason we know the Romans could pull 300 tons is because they invented the first wench. We found their tools scattered all over the site so we know and can prove what they were capable of. With the megaliths it's just unexplainable. We have no evidence of how they were built.

 

But yet modern day archeologists have put forth "accepted" theories about how these ruins were built and who built them with zero evidence lol.

 

Awesome. And now that we are finding cities that date back to the last ice age why should we believe anything the archeological community puts forth?? it's all crap lol. It's obvious they are just guessing and trying to write their names in the history books man.

What is a joke, is to take something that is not adequately explained by the current explanation and try to solve the problem with wild speculation. and the idea of interdenominational beings helping is completely unfounded

[Realitycheck]

It's amazing what the mytholgy of modern day science fiction can impress upon people. It's like, "Well, maybe. You don't know that for sure." So the idea of ftl travel with faster than ftl asteroid scanning really holds a grip on some people.

[Edtharan]

I've watched the series and i have to say that some of the data presented is rather mind boggling, but some ideas are just silly.

I have to agree that megalithic structures with that kind of precision would prove difficult even with today's technology. (perfectly placing and perfectly cutting 3tonne blocks, 5 blocks per min)

The transportation of the materials used when nothing else resembling that material is present.

The similarities in design and ratio of the aztec and egytian pyramids are also quite "extraterrestrial"

Actually the rate needed for placing of the blocks could be done, as long as you realise that blocks don't have to be places sequentially, but can be placed in different parts of a site at the same time.

 

There is quite good documentary evidence that exists of how the ancient peoples managed to place blocks so accurately.

 

One technique is to cover the lower stone with chalk (or other material) and then lower the top block onto it. Then you lift the top block and where there is chalk on it, you have to chip off part of the block. Using this technique it is possible (and has been demonstrated) that using only primitive tools you can place blocks so accurately that you can not slip a knife between them.

 

It is known that Egyptians used barges to transport the stones along the Nile, from the quarry to the pyramid sites.

 

There is also an simple explanation of why Egyptian and Aztec pyramids are about the same size: That is the limit of human potential for building without modern machines.

 

There are also examples where these peoples practiced for hundreds of years at building these things, including ones where mistakes were made. They all start off small and simple, but steadily progress in complexity and size.

 

In other words, this is exactly the sequence you would expect if people were learning on their own on how to build these kinds of structures rather than having just being told how to make them, or that they were made by a civilisation that already had the expertise and high-tech building equipment (such as a star faring alien civilization would have).

[Moontanman]

Why does people go to the exploration?

 

For them it wouldn't just be exploration any more than colonizing the new world was only exploration, they would of course accumulate new knowledge about the place they colonize but colonization not exploration would be their priority.

 

And how do they obtain instruments for their adventure?

 

I'm not sure what you mean but if they were really colonizing by slow boat they would manufacture their own instruments out of the materials of the new planetary system.

 

To go exploration we require much money , I think, the alien would have the same problems.

 

Your are probably correct but Von Neuman type machines could very well, once started manufacture everything needed with little input other than information.

 

 

To obtain such energy to travel between stars, much resources are needed. So the rest aliens which is in their planet requires get some benefits against their pains. Then what is that benefits, it would be an information about the unknown would. Without such benefits the rest aliens would not offer their energy resources. I think they would not do such meaningless thing, i.e., no communication exploration to unknown world.

 

Why do you say no information could be passed back to the home world? Communication is at light speed, if we had a probe or colony in the Alpha Centari system they could beam back information at light speed, yes it would take 4 years to get here but a continuous beam of information could be studied as it came it, no wait of 4 years between messages if the message is continuous. Eventually the home world would be receiving a continuous stream of information from all of it's colonies as they came online, it would not be like sending out a mail ship that takes 4 years to get their and 4 years to get back, the information flow would be continuous, yes individual messages would take 4 years but the information flow would be continuous.

 

The main reason to colonize is to insure that a disaster at the home world doesn't wipe out your entire species, if you are scattered over several star systems them something like a super nova nearby wouldn't eliminate your entire species.

 

has anyone seen this show Ancient Aliens? the show is about the idea that aliens have visited earth and assisted in construction of ancient buildings etc. and they provide enough evidence to make it sound like a sincere hypothesis but still sounds a lot like nonsense what do you all think?

 

 

I'll chime in again on this, mostly because when i was young it was among my favorite myths. Personally i think it denigrates the abilities of humans working together to say some alien or god like power helped them. I've seen "shows" that did indeed explain the ways these megalithic structures were built, no aliens were needed, (these shows are not quite as popular as the "aliens did it shows") the use of math, levers, ramps and thousands of hp "human power" allowed our ancestors do things we cannot do because we value human life to much to dedicate tens of thousands of lives and or life times to hard labor. Personally i think many of these humans were slaves but there is evidence that many of them labored because they wanted to, to me this indicates much of the work force did what they did due to religion. They literally thought they were doing gods work, usually a king that was supposed to be a living god.

 

On the other hand humans recorded images of what we would today call UFOs, practically from the time we started using sharpened sticks, on cave walls, cliff sides, and on into actual paintings done in the middle ages. I tend to waffle back and forth over these images as to their real meaning. While they evoke images of aliens to us, to them they might have represented gods or spirits, the interesting part of this is why did primitive man see the same images we do? Real aliens? Some sort of mental imagery we all share? It's difficult to really say with certainty but i see no reason to evoke aliens to show how our ancestors built huge stone structures.

 

BTW, the idea of inter-dimensional beings was one of the hypotheses J. Allen Hynek thought was possible to explain UFOs so if you think this idea has merit you are not alone....

Edited September 11, 2011 by Moontanman

[michel123456]

Actually the rate needed for placing of the blocks could be done, as long as you realise that blocks don't have to be places sequentially, but can be placed in different parts of a site at the same time.

 

There is quite good documentary evidence that exists of how the ancient peoples managed to place blocks so accurately.

 

One technique is to cover the lower stone with chalk (or other material) and then lower the top block onto it. Then you lift the top block and where there is chalk on it, you have to chip off part of the block. Using this technique it is possible (and has been demonstrated) that using only primitive tools you can place blocks so accurately that you can not slip a knife between them.

 

It is known that Egyptians used barges to transport the stones along the Nile, from the quarry to the pyramid sites.

 

There is also an simple explanation of why Egyptian and Aztec pyramids are about the same size: That is the limit of human potential for building without modern machines.

 

There are also examples where these peoples practiced for hundreds of years at building these things, including ones where mistakes were made. They all start off small and simple, but steadily progress in complexity and size.

 

In other words, this is exactly the sequence you would expect if people were learning on their own on how to build these kinds of structures rather than having just being told how to make them, or that they were made by a civilisation that already had the expertise and high-tech building equipment (such as a star faring alien civilization would have).

 

Correct from top to bottom.

Most people ignore that for example all egyptian pyramids don't have the same structure. The Djeser pyramid has a base made of horizontal masonry that don't look like the beginning of a pyramid. The above part is made of stones on inclined slabs perpendicular to the faces of the pyramid. Later pyramids are constructed completely with horizontal slabs. All those ancient pyramids have an internal structure like an onion. Walls of stones filled with irregular blocks and argile mortar, again and again. During the middle empire, new systems are invented : walls are constructed alang the diagonals of the pyramd and filled with raugh material. These newer pyramids are not so well preserved (they lasted "only" a thousand of years). There is evidently research, no application of an external knowledge but application of the try-and-correct-the-mistake procedure.

Edited September 11, 2011 by michel123456