Question

[jjjjj]

If the neurons in your brain could somehow be activated w/o neurotransmitters would you be conscious?

[Genecks]

Consciousness is a tricky issue with multiple people considering it to be non-existent if not a recursive consideration of the individual parts working together as a perceptual whole.

 

But yeah, perhaps you could pull it off. You'd need a methodology in order to do it.

 

This would most likely involve controlling large populations of neural networks, which I don't think the delicate technology exists as of yet. You'd need something that stimulates, computes changes in cellular physiology, and relays digital and/or analog neural codes to other cells.

 

... side-track

 

I'm an identity theorist who believes that conscious is the recursive consideration of the individual parts working together. If you can't have the introspective aspect involved with the ability to take consideration of the limitations of the individual parts that make up the whole, then you've failed to replicate consciousness.

 

Greater knowledge of philosophy, technology, and science may persuade me away from such a standpoint.

 

Of the things I know, I know that identity theory is true on a physicalist basis.

 

... done with side-track

 

That can so far be done on a really small scale but not a large scale like you're requesting, at least I would think. Perhaps something could contemporarily be done with the somatosensory system and motor cortex, but I'm not sure nor giving the idea too much thought.

 

There is also the consideration that you can electrically stimulate the motor cortex to influence and efferent response while a person is alert and conscious, but I don't suspect that is what you're asking about.

 

Links:

1) http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mind-identity/

2) http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/

Edited August 1, 2011 by Genecks

[Ahsan Iqbal]

There are certain areas of the brain that gives you conscious feeling about things. The most important of these is cerebral cortex. So if these cells are kept working, in addition to the entire sensory pathway that conducts information towards the cortex to be processed, consciousness will be there.

[DrmDoc]

Consciousness arises from a confluence of cortical, subcortical, and sensory activity. All this activity is made possible by neurotransmitters; i.e., consciousness is activated and informed by the transmission of neural information. Without neuratransmitters there would be no communication between the neurons that comprise and complete the circuit of brain activity from which consciousness arises; therefore, activation of individual neurons without communication between the neurons that give rise to consciousness will not produce the confluence or concert of brain activity that leads to consciousness. In short, activation of individual neurons does not equate consciousness.

[Ahsan Iqbal]

Consciousness arises from a confluence of cortical, subcortical, and sensory activity. All this activity is made possible by neurotransmitters; i.e., consciousness is activated and informed by the transmission of neural information. Without neuratransmitters there would be no communication between the neurons that comprise and complete the circuit of brain activity from which consciousness arises; therefore, activation of individual neurons without communication between the neurons that give rise to consciousness will not produce the confluence or concert of brain activity that leads to consciousness. In short, activation of individual neurons does not equate consciousness.

 

Absolutely right, but in a hypothetical case where supposedly we can activate the neurons involved, without the neurotransmitters (maybe with something else) so that they can perform their function, we would get conscious feelings.

[DrmDoc]

Absolutely right, but in a hypothetical case where supposedly we can activate the neurons involved, without the neurotransmitters (maybe with something else) so that they can perform their function, we would get conscious feelings.

 

If I understood correctly, the OP was asking if consciousness could be produced by activating individual neurons without the substance (neurotransmitters) that enable communication between neurons. Consciousness is a product of neurons working together in a concert of consciousness-producing neural activity. A single neuron or billions of active neurons cannot individually spark or create consciousness without the support of other neurons through a means to communicate and unify that process. Without a unifying link between neurons, individual activation would merely produce disjoined, chaotic, and aimless neuronal activity. If the hypothetical case involves an artificial means of communication between neurons, then I agree that consciousness could be possible.

Edited August 7, 2011 by DrmDoc

[Ahsan Iqbal]

If I understood correctly, the OP was asking if consciousness could be produced by activating individual neurons without the substance (neurotransmitters) that enable communication between neurons. Consciousness is a product of neurons working together in a concert of consciousness-producing neural activity. A single neuron or billions of active neurons cannot individually spark or create consciousness without the support of other neurons through a means to communicate and unify that process. Without a unifying link between neurons, individual activation would merely produce disjoined, chaotic, and aimless neuronal activity. If the hypothetical case involves an artificial means of communication between neurons, then I agree that consciousness could be possible.

 

Look, first of all you will have to appreciate that not all neurons of the nervous system are involved in consciousness. The motor part of the nervous system has nothing to do with it. If someone argues that we know when we move our skeletal muscles by will, so how it can be that it is not related to consciousness? The answer would be that you know when you move your muscles because there are small sensory structures within the substance of the muscle (neuromuscular spindles) as well as the tendon (neurotendinous organs, also called golgi tendon organs). These little sensors send information to brain whenever you stretch or relax your muscle. And it is this sensory information that reaches consciousness.

 

Now let me build on this. Suppose a person's motor system is not functioning, can he still have conscious feeling. The answer is Yes. He still can have. So as I said in my previous answer, if there is some way to only make those neurons functional that are involved in the neural pathway of consciousness, the person would have conscious feelings.

[DrmDoc]

Look, first of all you will have to appreciate that not all neurons of the nervous system are involved in consciousness. The motor part of the nervous system has nothing to do with it. If someone argues that we know when we move our skeletal muscles by will, so how it can be that it is not related to consciousness? The answer would be that you know when you move your muscles because there are small sensory structures within the substance of the muscle (neuromuscular spindles) as well as the tendon (neurotendinous organs, also called golgi tendon organs). These little sensors send information to brain whenever you stretch or relax your muscle. And it is this sensory information that reaches consciousness.

 

Now let me build on this. Suppose a person's motor system is not functioning, can he still have conscious feeling. The answer is Yes. He still can have. So as I said in my previous answer, if there is some way to only make those neurons functional that are involved in the neural pathway of consciousness, the person would have conscious feelings.

 

Would this sensory information reach consciousness without a neuronal means or ability to send or transmit that information? Isn't that means or ability the purpose of neurotransmitters between neurons? We know that consciousness involves an interconnected confluence of neuronal activity. If we remove the neurotransmitters and somehow allow each neuron to remain individually active, how would those separate neurons unify the process that constructs consciousness? In figurative terms, can individual construction workers (singular neurons) build a skyscraper (consciousness) without a means to coordinate and unify (neurotransmitters) their efforts?

Edited August 8, 2011 by DrmDoc

[Ahsan Iqbal]

Would this sensory information reach consciousness without a neuronal means or ability to send or transmit that information? Isn't that means or ability the purpose of neurotransmitters between neurons? We know that consciousness involves an interconnected confluence of neuronal activity. If we remove the neurotransmitters and somehow allow each neuron to remain individually active, how would those separate neurons unify the process that constructs consciousness? In figurative terms, can individual construction workers (singular neurons) build a skyscraper (consciousness) without a means to coordinate and unify (neurotransmitters) their efforts?

Nice example and I completely agree. But that is what I am trying to say. If somehow we con only activate the neural pathway for consciousness (and do take into account that it is just a one-way path), we can make the person conscious. The neural pathway I am talking about would obviously contain the synapses between involved neurons. So when I say activate neural pathway, I mean activate neurons as well as the synapses.

[DrmDoc]

If the neurons in your brain could somehow be activated w/o neurotransmitters would you be conscious?

 

I agree that synapes activation would normally necessitate the transmission of information between neurons via some electrochemical process; however, the OP here seems to be asking could consciousness exist among a collective of active neurons without neurotransmitters, which is without that which enables neuronal sharing of information. My position is that consciousness cannot exist between individually active neurons that do not have a means to share their information with other neurons to coordinate and unify their activity.

[Ahsan Iqbal]

My position is that consciousness cannot exist between individually active neurons that do not have a means to share their information with other neurons to coordinate and unify their activity.

There is a basic thing to understand about consciousness. It is not something like if axons are active, we feel they are active. No, we don't feel this way. Actually, there are specific areas in the brain (cerebral cortex) that gives us that specific feeling of being conscious.

The other thing to note is that these areas of the brain, which give the feeling of being conscious need to be stimulated by something. The current for stimulation starts at the sensory cells of the nervous system, under normal conditions. And connecting the sensory neurons and the cerebral cortex are various other neurons.

 

So we need three things working and connected to one another: Sensory cells, conducting neurons and cerebral cortex.

The role of neurotransmitters is that they connect these structures in a functional way. So if something else can do that, (which I am not sure about if anything like that exists), we can certainly have consciousness without the neurotransmitters (but by using that specific substance)

[DrmDoc]

There is a basic thing to understand about consciousness. It is not something like if axons are active, we feel they are active. No, we don't feel this way. Actually, there are specific areas in the brain (cerebral cortex) that gives us that specific feeling of being conscious.

The other thing to note is that these areas of the brain, which give the feeling of being conscious need to be stimulated by something. The current for stimulation starts at the sensory cells of the nervous system, under normal conditions. And connecting the sensory neurons and the cerebral cortex are various other neurons.

 

So we need three things working and connected to one another: Sensory cells, conducting neurons and cerebral cortex.

The role of neurotransmitters is that they connect these structures in a functional way. So if something else can do that, (which I am not sure about if anything like that exists), we can certainly have consciousness without the neurotransmitters (but by using that specific substance)

 

Agreed. As I previously wrote, "If the hypothetical case involves an artificial means of communication between neurons, then I agree that consciousness could be possible."

[Ahsan Iqbal]

Agreed. As I previously wrote, "If the hypothetical case involves an artificial means of communication between neurons, then I agree that consciousness could be possible."

 

Thanks DrmDoc. At last we got a point on which we both can agree.