Why do you follow a genocidal God?

[Greatest I am]

Why do you follow a genocidal God?

 

Bible God, the un-knowable one, has been described in scriptures by someone claiming to know much of the un-knowable God. How the un-knowable can be know has yet to shown. On reading scriptures, some have concluded that Bible God is quite immoral.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK1DbcIbHt4&playnext=1&list=PLC76727A34E740D99

 

I tend to agree based on moral reasons and would like to keep the discussion on morality without going into whether God is real or not. Something that we cannot prove. We can prove though whether we think Bible God acted morally or not.

 

The first followers of Bible God, the Jews, also seem to agree with Dawkins and myself.

 

 

Genocide, or attempted genocide is considered by most to be a low moral position.

 

Followers of a Hitler or Stalin, who would try to justify their genocidal actions, would not be well received by most of us.

 

Why then do you think that we should join you in following a God who takes the moral low ground of genocide instead of doing the right moral thing and curing instead of killing those he thinks defective?

 

As a religionist myself, I can understand seeking God but why would we want to seek, or follow a genocidal one?

 

What attracts you to a genocidal God?

 

Is it just that might makes right?

 

We are to emulate God.

 

Does that mean that you too would use genocide as a form of what most believers think of as good justice?

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

[Realitycheck]

I think something you need to realize is that God didn't do anything genocydal, gave people free will (depending on whose God you believe in), if you require a God to believe in. On many instances, the Jews claimed to be instructed by God to go to war, but I think the correct conclusion that can be arrived at was that they were driven by their cause, at best, if not driven by schizophrenia, and "God's" (whoever God could possibly be concluded as) hands are clean, to the extent of what actually happened and what is actually just glorified storytelling. Of course, Jesus' laws were much the same, though much more forgiving, and if "God's" messages are really just kaballistic messages delivered through the sands of time and coincidence, especially to mentally not well people who keep looking for answers from some direction, any direction, then you can't really give it two cents of sensibility. Kaballism has already been ruled out as unhealthy by the Jews long ago and is mostly only followed by backwards New Agers like Madonna who are so off-based, her teenaged daughter comes off as a teenaged Harry Potter wannabe, so off-based from the real thing due to their total lack of understanding of it, that she's all screwed up. It's just bs, caused by people's enamoration with "miraculous coincidences" in anything and everything which they so ardently strive to look for, I really think that, if there really is a God, his bandwidth got exceeded long ago, and he could care less about the small stuff and if he set some important laws of nature in place to maybe simplify things, he (or she or it) is surely not going to be keeping up with the minute by minute minutiae of kabbalism. Just my 2 cents.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Realitycheck

[Greatest I am]

I think something you need to realize is that God didn't do anything genocydal, gave people free will .

 

 

I sniped for brevity.

 

Thanks for this.

 

Is the story of Noah’s flood, as set out in scripture, not a genocidal act?

 

As to free will. God’s idea of free will seems to be ----do things my way or burn forever.

 

Do you really see that as free will and not a threat?

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

[Realitycheck]

Oh yeah, God killed all of the make-believe aliens that were ruining his pristine, innocent creation, circa 3000 BC. The shoe fits, but for some reason, I'm just not buying it, since the OT was never really written and assembled until after 1000 BC. They were all passing around brewskies, glorifying the spirit of victory over the anal invaders from eons before, in another age, long before, from the spirit of Neverhappenedland.

 

PS. I'm not going to argue with you about the morality of these actions, though in light of the civility (or lack thereof) in these other, warring godless, rape-filled, sodomistic societies, there could potentially be a case made for the Jews, but it is all lost in time. Since women were not endowed with lubricant secretions in their anus, it just goes to show why the Jews even exist, why the creation of life can be valued so much. You can't deny the fact that they have stood the test of time, however much they have descended into commonality, as a whole. Everything happens for a reason and hindsight is 20/20. Someone had to stand up for women's rights and human decency, however flawed they may have been in their storytelling.

[Realitycheck]

Lastly, sorry for changing the subject, was not intentional, but to answer your question about genocidal Gods, you should understand that Jews of old were (and to a substantial extent still are) highly supersticious, their relationship with God was all-encompassing, governing every aspect of their lives, very similar to the way that Moslems exercise their faith. It isn't that they choose to believe in a genocidal God, it's just that fear of being struck by lightning or swept away by a tornado or a tsunami can be a real life shaping experience, especially when it is all attributed to God. If someone was raised that way in a time long ago, before the advent of technology, they would have no other sensible choice than to be the best they could possibly be in order to appease God and be in his favor. I think the primary issue is their attribution of God's will to the will of the tornado. At some point in time their ideology has likely changed, divided into different factions-conservative,reform,and Orthodox, just to name a few, but I am just referring to the core beliefs of old. To have a lifestyle that is so strictly and extensively defined by your relationship to God (diet,work habit,clothing,etc.) just goes to show you how extensively they were supersticious. The defining question really comes down to what form was the almighty Shaddai in when He would order these attacks? How were these messages/ commands conveyed? The most logical conclusion is that since most of this detail in the OT never really actually happened, it's all a moot point. Why would people believe in a warring God? Because people have been warring since before they could even talk to each other.

[mississippichem]

I think the primary issue is their attribution of God's will to the will of the tornado. At some point in time their ideology has likely changed, divided into different factions-conservative,reform,and Orthodox, just to name a few, but I am just referring to the core beliefs of old. To have a lifestyle that is so strictly and extensively defined by your relationship to God (diet,work habit,clothing,etc.) just goes to show you how extensively they were supersticious. The defining question really comes down to what form was the almighty Shaddai in when He would order these attacks? How were these messages/ commands conveyed? The most logical conclusion is that since most of this detail in the OT never really actually happened, it's all a moot point. Why would people believe in a warring God? Because people have been warring since before they could even talk to each other.

 

I agree. I think humans tend to project their own fears, ambitions, and hopes onto an anthropomorphic deity. If they feel insecure about wars, then god becomes a valiant, always victorious warrior god. When a tornado happens, he becomes the jealous and vengeful smiter. It is interesting how there are so many names for the Judeo/Christian god in the old testament.

[Greatest I am]

I agree. I think humans tend to project their own fears, ambitions, and hopes onto an anthropomorphic deity. If they feel insecure about wars, then god becomes a valiant, always victorious warrior god. When a tornado happens, he becomes the jealous and vengeful smiter. It is interesting how there are so many names for the Judeo/Christian god in the old testament.

 

A God to blame for all conditions.

 

Anything is better than theists stepping up and taking responsibilities for our own actions.

Note how far up Jesus' ass Christians have put their heads to insure that they never have to take their responsibility for their sins.

 

Regards

DL

[Realitycheck]

hmm, where have I read that before. Take a chill pill, it's all been done before, the sun will rise another day. Don't drink, don't smoke, subtle innuendo follows, something happens on the inside, must be something on the inside.

 

By the way, Christians are not really that bad, as a whole. You just have splinter group (ir?)rationalists who use the whole (Jesus died for my sins) rationale to practice what they do, but nobody is going to pay attention to it since the majority of Christians are decent people. If you are so perfect, then forget about it and just work on your own business. Society has plenty of checks in place to mostly shape people into moderate conformity, unless they are totally on the fringe, in which, sooner or later, the dragnets will take their toll and make them ship shape or they will fall prey to their own demises. Being all judgmental is just the quick road to not having any friends. Like the saying goes for the spiritually inclined, "Let go and let God".

Edited August 4, 2011 by Realitycheck

[Greatest I am]

hmm, where have I read that before. Take a chill pill, it's all been done before, the sun will rise another day. Don't drink, don't smoke, subtle innuendo follows, something happens on the inside, must be something on the inside.

 

By the way, Christians are not really that bad, as a whole. You just have splinter group (ir?)rationalists who use the whole (Jesus died for my sins) rationale to practice what they do, but nobody is going to pay attention to it since the majority of Christians are decent people. If you are so perfect, then forget about it and just work on your own business. Society has plenty of checks in place to mostly shape people into moderate conformity, unless they are totally on the fringe, in which, sooner or later, the dragnets will take their toll and make them ship shape or they will fall prey to their own demises. Being all judgmental is just the quick road to not having any friends. Like the saying goes for the spiritually inclined, "Let go and let God".

 

Let me repeat---

It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.

 

They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1

 

They also do much harm to their own.

 

African witches and Jesus

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related

 

Jesus Camp 1of 9

 

 

Promoting death to Gays.

 

 

For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.

Fight them when you can.

 

 

 

You say that most Christians are good people and you may be right even as the U S, a Christian nation, has the most in jail, per capita, than most other first world nations.

 

That aside though, I have yet to see any Christian start a post showing the crap that they do and denouncing it.

 

They may be good but not good enough to clean up their own act.

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

[A Tripolation]

Note how far up Jesus' ass Christians have put their heads to insure that they never have to take their responsibility for their sins.

 

I'm pretty sure that the main point of Christianity is that we are an inherently sinful species, and only God can save us from our deserved punishment. Good deeds do not matter, nor does how we live our life, because we have still sinned. How is that shunning responsibility for our sins?

 

Maybe if we prayed to some telepathic, sentient universe-collective thing, everything would be better.

[Brainteaserfan]

I'm pretty sure that the main point of Christianity is that we are an inherently sinful species, and only God can save us from our deserved punishment. Good deeds do not matter, nor does how we live our life, because we have still sinned. How is that shunning responsibility for our sins?

 

Maybe if we prayed to some telepathic, sentient universe-collective thing, everything would be better.

James 2, verse 26, NKJV, quote, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

http://mobile.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=James+2%3A14-26&version=NKJV

 

It does matter what we do even after Jesus has saved us.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Note how far up Jesus' ass Christians have put their heads to insure that they never have to take their responsibility for their sins.

If you continue to insist on personal attacks on believers to make your points, your access to the Religion forum will be revoked. Please read the religion forum rules, particularly rule 1.a.

[Greatest I am]

I'm pretty sure that the main point of Christianity is that we are an inherently sinful species, and only God can save us from our deserved punishment. Good deeds do not matter, nor does how we live our life, because we have still sinned. How is that shunning responsibility for our sins?

 

 

 

Are you saying that Christians do not believe that Jesus became their scapegoat and died for their sins?

Even as scripture says that that is B S and that God would reject such an immoral act.

 

Please show the logic trail that explains why an omnipotent God, who knows all things, would create a species that he has to die for.

 

 

Regards

DL

 

If you continue to insist on personal attacks on believers to make your points, your access to the Religion forum will be revoked. Please read the religion forum rules, particularly rule 1.a.

 

I will try to be more politically correct even as I find that to be hypocritical.

I did not see my statement as personal because I see them that way as a group.

 

Regards

DL

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

I will try to be more politically correct even as I find that to be hypocritical.

I did not see my statement as personal because I see them that way as a group.

Then you will want to read SFN rule 1, particularly part c. I'm not asking for political correctness in your beliefs; you may believe what you want, but expressing it through vulgarity and insults is not acceptable. If you want to discuss this, please send me a private message.

[A Tripolation]

Are you saying that Christians do not believe that Jesus became their scapegoat and died for their sins?

Even as scripture says that that is B S and that God would reject such an immoral act.

 

I'd like to see the scripture that calls the crucifixion BS.

 

Yes, I am saying that. Jesus wasn't a scapegoat. He willfully gave himself as a sacrifice that way we would not have to endure the punishment we rightfully deserve.

 

James 2, verse 26, NKJV, quote, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

http://mobile.biblegateway.com/passage/index.php?search=James+2%3A14-26&version=NKJV

 

It does matter what we do even after Jesus has saved us.

 

Read what I had written more closely. I was saying that, in the modern version of Christianity, good deeds and your own merit are not enough to allow one access to heaven.

[Realitycheck]

 

I was saying that, in the modern version of Christianity, good deeds and your own merit are not enough to allow one access to heaven.

 

This is disputed by some modern Catholics, at least. I've seen some positions taken (I think I even posted them) that an atheist could even make it to heaven based on acts alone.

 

It's there, Grace relies on good information. Post#604885

[Greatest I am]

I'd like to see the scripture that calls the crucifixion BS.

 

I did not say the crucifixion was B S, even as we cannot be sure it happened, but was speaking to the idea that it was a sacrifice orchestrated by God.

 

What God in his right mind would create a species that he had to die for.

 

God cannot die in the first place can he?

 

Please do not use that dumb Trinity garbage.

 

Check instead the moral implications of the following.

 

 

Matthew 10:38

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Note how this indicates we are to help others, not try to profit from his death.

 

Ezekiel 18:20

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

 

Psalm 49:7

None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

 

 

 

Note how we are all responsible for our own action and cannot use Jesus as our ransom.

 

 

Yes, I am saying that. Jesus wasn't a scapegoat. He willfully gave himself as a sacrifice that way we would not have to endure the punishment we rightfully deserve.

 

Yet scripture says ----father who sent me.

 

Sons are to bury their fathers. Not fathers bury their sons, so to me, God sending Jesus is God not stepping up to his own responsibilities.

 

If you had to sacrifice a life for what you created, would you step up or send your son to die in your stead?

 

 

 

This is also interesting.

 

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/expedition-week/4290/Overview#tab-Videos/07451_00

 

If you believe Jesus actually committed suicide, then it was a slf aggrandizing act, not a sacrifice.

 

 

Read what I had written more closely. I was saying that, in the modern version of Christianity, good deeds and your own merit are not enough to allow one access to heaven.

 

That would mean that good people of good heart with no need of a God are not acceptable to God. Right?

Do you not think that strange?

 

Regards

DL

[Brainteaserfan]

I've seen some positions taken (I think I even posted them) that an atheist could even make it to heaven based on acts alone.

I see no evidence for this in the Bible.

John 14:6 KJV

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[Realitycheck]

Well, yeah, if you're going strictly by the Bible, but then you would have to accept all of the fantasy, as well. I think the church is trying to reach for a more enlightened crowd. But beware of the worldly!

[Brainteaserfan]

Well, yeah, if you're going strictly by the Bible, but then you would have to accept all of the fantasy, as well. I think the church is trying to reach for a more enlightened crowd. But beware of the worldly!

Under, "christianity".

Quote, "based on the Bible"

http://i.word.com/idictionary/christianity

 

Read what I had written more closely. I was saying that, in the modern version of Christianity, good deeds and your own merit are not enough to allow one access to heaven.

I see what you meant now. However, "Good deeds do not matter," can be taken two ways.

[Greatest I am]

I see no evidence for this in the Bible.

John 14:6 KJV

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

Jesus also said you'd know his disciples by their fruit (Works).

 

..14.. How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation?..

 

 

....15.. If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on,..

 

 

....16.. and one of you says to them, 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that?..

 

 

....17.. In the same way faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead...

 

 

....18.. But someone may say: So you have faith and I have good deeds? Show me this faith of yours without deeds, then! It is by my deeds that I will show you my faith...

 

 

....19.. You believe in the one God -- that is creditable enough, but even the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear...

 

 

....20.. Fool! Would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless?..

 

 

....21.. Was not Abraham our father justified by his deed, because he offered his son Isaac on the altar?..

 

 

....22.. So you can see that his faith was working together with his deeds; his faith became perfect by what he did...

 

 

....23.. In this way the scripture was fulfilled: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was considered as making him upright; and he received the name 'friend of God'...

 

 

....24.. You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified...

 

You should study James a bit more if you think there is no contradiction between James and Peter.

 

http://bible.org/article/faith-demons-james-219

 

Regards

DL

[Brainteaserfan]

Jesus also said you'd know his disciples by their fruit (Works).

 

..14.. How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation?..

 

 

....15.. If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on,..

 

 

....16.. and one of you says to them, 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that?..

 

 

....17.. In the same way faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead...

 

 

....18.. But someone may say: So you have faith and I have good deeds? Show me this faith of yours without deeds, then! It is by my deeds that I will show you my faith...

 

 

....19.. You believe in the one God -- that is creditable enough, but even the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear...

 

 

....20.. Fool! Would you not like to know that faith without deeds is useless?..

 

 

....21.. Was not Abraham our father justified by his deed, because he offered his son Isaac on the altar?..

 

 

....22.. So you can see that his faith was working together with his deeds; his faith became perfect by what he did...

 

 

....23.. In this way the scripture was fulfilled: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was considered as making him upright; and he received the name 'friend of God'...

 

 

....24.. You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified...

 

You should study James a bit more if you think there is no contradiction between James and Peter.

 

http://bible.org/article/faith-demons-james-219

 

Regards

DL

I hope I'm not misunderstanding your post. I was replying to RealityCheck on whether an atheist could reach heaven, and your conclusion is that it takes works and believing to make it to heaven? That's what is was telling RealityCheck, only emphasizing the belief part. Are you trying to support my position? confused...

[Greatest I am]

I hope I'm not misunderstanding your post. I was replying to RealityCheck on whether an atheist could reach heaven, and your conclusion is that it takes works and believing to make it to heaven? That's what is was telling RealityCheck, only emphasizing the belief part. Are you trying to support my position? confused...

 

Yes.

 

I noted your Jesus quote and I am on the works are required side so I thought I would just added some quotes for you to see what he said of works.

 

Regards

DL

Edited August 6, 2011 by Greatest I am

[A Tripolation]

This is disputed by some modern Catholics, at least. I've seen some positions taken (I think I even posted them) that an atheist could even make it to heaven based on acts alone.

 

It's disputed by me as well. I was simply stating the view of mainstream Christians.

 

I did not say the crucifixion was B S, even as we cannot be sure it happened, but was speaking to the idea that it was a sacrifice orchestrated by God.

 

What God in his right mind would create a species that he had to die for.

 

God cannot die in the first place can he?

 

A God that values free will above all. And no, he can't. But Jesus was human. And humans can die. If he wasn't human, his sacrifice would've meant nothing.

 

Yet scripture says ----father who sent me.

 

Sons are to bury their fathers. Not fathers bury their sons, so to me, God sending Jesus is God not stepping up to his own responsibilities.

 

Jesus is God manifesting himself in human form, and being nothing but love and forgiveness. And what would be harder, a father dying in place of his son, or having to watch his son die? God created a way for humanity to be redeemed from their awful nature. I find it hard to believe that that means he is not stepping up to his responsibilities.

 

If you had to sacrifice a life for what you created, would you step up or send your son to die in your stead?

 

Well, if only my son could make the sacrifice, then yes, I would send him.

 

 

 

If you believe Jesus actually committed suicide, then it was a slf aggrandizing act, not a sacrifice.

 

Sacrifice [math] \ne [/math] Suicide

 

 

 

That would mean that good people of good heart with no need of a God are not acceptable to God. Right?

Do you not think that strange?

 

I do think it strange. And also terribly wrong. Which is why I disagree with the concept of Hell for people with good souls.

Edited August 6, 2011 by A Tripolation

[Brainteaserfan]

Jesus is God manifesting himself in human form, and being nothing but love and forgiveness. And what would be harder, a father dying in place of his son, or having to watch his son die? God created a way for humanity to be redeemed from their awful nature. I find it hard to believe that that means he is not stepping up to his responsibilities.

Not to mention that He isn't really responsible for Our sins.