intrinsic properties?

[michel123456]

How can anything have intrinsic properties?

 

lets take the example of the electron. The electron is thought to be an elementary particle. "It has no known components or substructure"

 

Quote from wiki (bolded mine)

The electron is a subatomic particle which has the symbol e−

and a negative electric charge of 1 elementary charge. It has no known components or substructure. Therefore, the electron is generally thought to be an elementary particle.[2] An electron has a mass that is approximately 1/1836 that of the proton[8]. The intrinsic angular momentum (spin) of the electron is a half-integer value in units of ħ, which means that it is a fermion. The antiparticle of the electron is called the positron. The positron is identical to the electron except that it carries electrical and other charges of the opposite sign. When an electron collides with a positron, both particles may either scatter off each other or be totally annihilated, producing a pair (or more) of gamma ray photons. Electrons, which belong to the first generation of the lepton particle family,[9] participate in gravitational, electromagnetic and weak interactions.[10] Electrons, like all matter, have quantum mechanical properties of both particles and waves, so they can collide with other particles and be diffracted like light. However, this duality is best demonstrated in experiments with electrons, due to their tiny mass. Since an electron is a fermion, no two electrons can occupy the same quantum state, in accordance with the Pauli exclusion principle.[9]

 

It has mass, spin, charge, it has a twin brother with opposite characteristics but no inner components, they can anhilate and produce photons, they participate in 3 of the 4 interactions, and "when an electron is accelerated, it can absorb or radiate energy in the form of photons."

 

How is it possible something that has no components or substructure to have so many (intrinsic?) characteristics?

Edited August 9, 2011 by michel123456

[mathematic]

How can anything have intrinsic properties?

 

lets take the example of the electron. The electron is thought to be an elementary particle. "It has no known components or substructure"

 

Quote from wiki (bolded mine)

 

 

It has mass, spin, charge, it has a twin brother with opposite characteristics but no inner components, they can anhilate and produce photons, they participate in 3 of the 4 interactions, and "when an electron is accelerated, it can absorb or radiate energy in the form of photons."

 

How is it possible something that has no components or substructure to have so many (intrinsic?) characteristics?

Question for you, why do think having components answers the question in any way? Elementary particles have properties.

[michel123456]

Question for you, why do think having components answers the question in any way? Elementary particles have properties.

 

That blows my mind.

I cannot conceive that an elementary particle could have a shape, a color, or anything like that (a charge). To me it cannot absorb anything or emit anything, what kind of elementary is this? An elementary particle cannot transform, because transformation supposes a different arrangement of things. When there is only one thing, what kind of arrangement can you make? An elementary particle cannot have a structure, made of what, even more elementary particles?

 

IOW I cannot conceive what an elementary particle would be. I cannot conceive what we are looking for.

[swansont]

How could two particles with no properties combine and become a composite system with properties? You're just adding a layer to the problem, not eliminating it.

[imatfaal]

Michel - I think I can see what you are getting at, how can something that is uniform, undifferentiated, and without internal sub-structure have recognizable and changeable properties. I have no formal training in non-classical physics - and I think that I am limited by that to a view that is classical; however I think this is the human condition and that any other view requires a deliberate suspension of our normal faculties

 

 

How could two particles with no properties combine and become a composite system with properties? You're just adding a layer to the problem, not eliminating it.

 

One red snooker ball on the baize is indistinguishable from others - fifteen can be placed in arrangements that could be listed and distinguished. Whilst the properties of one are limited to xy position on the table (assuming the surface and internal make-up are homogeneous); the properties of a group of fifteen could include whether group is symmetrical, does the group enclose space, is the group continous, or does it space fill maximally.

[swansont]

One red snooker ball on the baize is indistinguishable from others - fifteen can be placed in arrangements that could be listed and distinguished. Whilst the properties of one are limited to xy position on the table (assuming the surface and internal make-up are homogeneous); the properties of a group of fifteen could include whether group is symmetrical, does the group enclose space, is the group continous, or does it space fill maximally.

 

Can't be red. That's a property. Ball? That's round. Same problem.

 

It's not just that they are indistinguishable — they have no properties. How do you tell that they are there?

[imatfaal]

Can't be red. That's a property. Ball? That's round. Same problem.

 

It's not just that they are indistinguishable — they have no properties. How do you tell that they are there?

 

hmmmm - I was reading properties as "distinguishing properties" - distinguishing both between examples and within the single particle; your initial point clearly does not say that.

 

However, a particle with no properties in the strict sense is not worth getting worried over; the question asked (I think) how can featureless particles that are not subdivideable have intrinsic and changeable properties (ie they do have properties). It was asked how multiplication of layers helps - I think the snooker ball analogy still stands in that context of the original question and that follow-up.

[swansont]

Charge is given as an example. OK, how does charge appear as a property of a composite system? How do you get a composite system, which requires an interaction to form it? It can't be electrostatic, because the particles have no charge. Any interaction you try is going to need to work on some intrinsic property. Which requires another layer of composite particles, according to the hypothesis. It's turtles all the way down.

[michel123456]

(...) It's turtles all the way down.

 

Yes. Something like a fractal, with the difference that we haven't observed any repetitive pattern.