David Starkey

[ajb]

On the 12th August historian David Starkey has told BBC's Newsnight ''the whites have become black'' and the ''destructive, nihilistic gangster culture'', he said ''has become the fashion''. You can find more details here.

 

Various people have come to say how wrong Dr. Starkey is. The Labour leader Ed Miliband said the comments are "disgusting and outrageous". The BBC has received many complaints about Dr. Starkey's comments.

 

So what do you all think? Is Dr. Starkey wrong in what he said? Or is he just wrong for saying it? Surely we do not want afro-american gang R'n'B drug culture to be prevalent in UK society (or anywhere else) ? This is irrespective of race.

[Marqq]

They're straw-manning!!! If he had said 'gangsta' or 'thug' culture (cultcha?), they'd actually have to deal with his comments. Instead, they're focusing on the fact that he related the culture to black people (the ones who spawned it, in general). RnB is great...was great...when it was rhythm and blues. Gangsta culture is really based in fear and posturing, matched with a complete lack of respect for anyone who doesn't act at least as stupid. What's really horrid is how well it appeals to people too ignorant or stupid to use diplomacy, make compromises, etc. 'The masses' are hugely ignorant and stupid, as most here know. This thuggish mentality gives power to those without the intelligence to deserve it, and without any instance of requiring ethical behavior. As far as the drugs aspect, well, I believe many wars could be avoided with the consideration inspired by marijuana, but other drugs (alcohol included) are mostly destructive.

 

As for the idea that it's spreading like an epidemic, I'd also have to agree. The attitudes are promoted on afternoon talk shows, in music videos, in movies, etc. I've seen many (given, anecdotal) examples of 'conversion' to this mentality crossing the generation line, and increasing in influence.

[john5746]

He is wrong to state it in such a poor way. We've had KKK, skinheads, rednecks, etc. so I guess one could argue anytime people become violent or hateful, they are "acting white". He is condemning a race based on the acts of some in a culture. Just as you can condemn Nazi's or the KKK without blaming the whole white race, you can also do that in this case.

[ajb]

He is condemning a race based on the acts of some in a culture.

 

I thought he was quite clear that he was not condemning a race, but rather one of the cultures that originated from black people. One particular culture that is violent and criminal that for some reason the British lower classes: white, Asian and black, are attracted to.

[Marqq]

He is wrong to state it in such a poor way. We've had KKK, skinheads, rednecks, etc. so I guess one could argue anytime people become violent or hateful, they are "acting white". He is condemning a race based on the acts of some in a culture. Just as you can condemn Nazi's or the KKK without blaming the whole white race, you can also do that in this case.

 

I just think it should be pointed out that 'acting black' and 'acting white' are idioms from the very culture he's describing. I won't go into the various meanings, as that does get offensive. The point is, even gangstas (omg, spellcheck allowed that!) say, "White folks is turnin' black yo," or, "You perty white fo a black dude homes". (please forgive the ebonics...hurts just to type it...) They use it, so he's just using their own terminology to describe that group. Where do you think the term 'Nazi' came from? Was it a slur used to offend the wannabe aryan dipshits? No. It's just a shortening of the term they used to describe themselves: Nazionelle Sozialisten. (Not sure if we shortened it or if they did)

 

Here, though, we get a special situation: The gangstas get to be offended because someone mentioned race. I don't really get this...and ya, it's a topic for another thread entirely, but hey--it ain't the N word, so get over it (am I right?). This seems to be a cultural defense mechanism, and I believe it truly merits sociological study. The gangsta culture survives now only because it can't be mentioned that it came from the darker parts of american society. Can we start teaching basic reasoning (including recognition of rhetoric) to elementary kids now? PLEASE?!

[CharonY]

I still think that the choice of words was somewhat poor. At the beginning he basically equates black culture (whatever that is) with gangsta culture (nihilistic, materialistic underclass culture, or however he put it).

While he mentioned that it originated as a black subculture, he did not much to differentiate between these two terms.

[jackson33]

Not having ever been to the UK or being aware of a friction between races there, opposed to cultures, this is somewhat confusing to me. This said, if their are problems, though likely a have/have not problem, what better way to solve than open dialog, which the tape presented. In the US, while the same things have been referenced for years, then generally by blacks themselves and nothing has really helped matters. Here is our current case, on this issue....

 

 

Mayor Nutter of Philadelphia response to black children going around being violent hooligans i.e., savages attacking innocent people. (BTW I'm black)[/Quote]

 

So what do you all think? Is Dr. Starkey wrong in what he said? Or is he just wrong for saying it? Surely we do not want afro-american gang R'n'B drug culture to be prevalent in UK society (or anywhere else) ? This is irrespective of race. [/Quote]

 

Agree ajb, each generation always wants what was during there youth, for the next, but the next always wants something different adding today communication, which can instantly draw large crowds.

[ajb]

Agree ajb, each generation always wants what was during there youth, for the next, but the next always wants something different adding today communication, which can instantly draw large crowds.

 

I don't think I necessarily want children and youth to be in exactly the environment or culture that I was brought up in. The objection is to the violent gang culture.

 

I cannot speak for Dr. Starkey.

Edited August 19, 2011 by ajb