What is your justification for believing in a God?

[esbo]

Neither your incredulity nor your personal invectives toward me nor your copious usage of LOLs are valid counter arguments or responses to anything I've shared or asked.

 

 

 

I am neither of the things you claimed in you ad hominem attack I have not attacked you just made an observation.

 

Perhaps you would like to provide some facts to back up your claims?

 

That would seem to be the best way to go would it not?

 

Otherwise you are basically asking me to act as my own prosecution and I am not going to be very good at

that!! :lol::lol::lol:

 

Also the lols are not part of my argument I never said they were and you making out they are is just another false

argument.

 

Anway I expect you need a little more time to gather facts!!!

 

You see the is to indicate that you have not actually provided any (valid ones) yet although I have.

[seriously disabled]

I have no such justification. I just do not believe.

 

I just never felt God's presence in my life and neither did my mother. When I was completely destitute and living on the streets and crying out for help, God didn't lend me a helping hand. In fact God does not help people at all, whether the homeless, the starving or the oppressed.

 

Think about it, if God treats us so cruelly during life then what exactly is it that makes theists so sure that he will just let them enjoy eternal peace in his heaven?

 

AND I ASK YOU, THIS IS SUPPOSEDLY THE GOD OF LOVE???

 

A good benevolent god could have created man as a loving caring creature with free will but without any desire or ability to commit evil.

 

God already created other limitations on man's 'free will'.

 

He created hunger pains to force man to eat and drink and He also created

suffocation panic to force man to breathe and a powerful sex drive to force

man to procreate, right? (Frequently in excess of mans ability to feed and care for

his creations!)

 

I mean why create greed and selfishness which encourages man to steel, lie, subjugate and even kill other men?

 

This is supposedly to keep man in line and force him to follow god's wishes and commands. This is a characteristic of a Capitalist dictator and slave master and not the characteristics of a loving god.

 

Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Floods, Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known diseases that affect and punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit millions of both young and old to starve to death on the street or die of miserable diseases? Why punish millions of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?

 

There is a parasitic worm in West Africa that bores through the eyes of children and causes total blindness for the rest of their lives. This is the work of an all caring and loving god???

 

Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent children" to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born stupid and others with super-intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others pauper poor and completely destitute? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age regardless of their religious affiliation?

 

Why did this all powerful and loving creator create things like sharks, jelly fish, octopus, lions, tigers, rhinoceros, Wolves, stinging and poisonous insects, poisonous snakes, poisonous plants etc.? Why did this caring benevolent god create animals (including man) that need to painfully kill and eat other animals to survive?

 

World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.

 

World II indiscriminately claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all ages and religious faiths, plus a vast destruction of property and more millions maimed for life.

 

The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed the lives of 200,000 men, women and children of all religious persuasions. Over 100,000 of these were totally INNOCENT children!

 

There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th, 14th. and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men, women and totally innocent children.

 

The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men, women and innocent children indiscriminately.

 

Diseases like malaria, AIDS, tuberculosis, etc. maim and kill millions indiscriminately every year. More millions die of starvation and malnutrition.

 

These indiscriminately afflicted the young and old, atheists and those of all religious persuasions.

 

Meanwhile MAN, and not god, has developed defenses and cures for hundreds of serious diseases. Man has learned to create shelter, heat and cooling, purify water, world wide electronic communications, power and transportation systems including flying through the air.

 

Perhaps your loving and caring god is actually a cruel, heartless, mean and torturing tyrant. If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you think he will let us enjoy peace and eternal happiness in his Heaven? And why does he keep all this a secret by preventing communication with our dead parents, siblings and friends?

 

There are thousands of religious and god beliefs but no OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE for the actual existence of ANY gods. ALL god beliefs are based on the 'opinions' of errant men.

 

If there is a God that created the Universe, he is obviously not a good-hearted and benevolent god. Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer". The objective evidence is if there is a God creator, he has NO concern about the welfare of the creatures of Earth.

Edited May 18, 2012 by seriously disabled

[iNow]

A much more likely explanation is that there simply is no god and nature is ultimately indifferent to us.

Edited May 18, 2012 by iNow

[hypervalent_iodine]

Why is there a war there?

 

If there is nobody told me!!!

 

 

The troubles in Ireland are not over religion but Nationality.

 

 

After doing a little extra reading, I'll concede your point. I'd always heard it as being a Catholic v. Protestant ordeal, and perhaps it is now, but it started out because those tags were a commonality to different social classes. Anyway, I learned something new today, so there you go!

 

Regardless of that, you cannot possibly deny (for instance) that the crusades and other types of holy wars were/are not based in religious ideology.

[swansont]

I am neither of the things you claimed in you ad hominem attack I have not attacked you just made an observation.

 

Perhaps you would like to provide some facts to back up your claims?

 

That would seem to be the best way to go would it not?

 

Otherwise you are basically asking me to act as my own prosecution and I am not going to be very good at

that!! :lol::lol::lol:

 

Also the lols are not part of my argument I never said they were and you making out they are is just another false

argument.

 

Anway I expect you need a little more time to gather facts!!!

 

You see the is to indicate that you have not actually provided any (valid ones) yet although I have.

!

Moderator Note

esbo: This is going off-topic. More relevant content, less tap-dancing.

 

If you think someone has made an ad hominem attack, you have two options: report it or ignore it. Making it a subject of discussion is not one of those options.

 

Just to note that you made a claim that "There have been no religious wars". If you are going to change that, you need to acknowledge that your original claim was in error. Moving the goalposts is a logical fallacy.

 

Do not derail the thread further by responding to this modnote

[esbo]

I have no such justification. I just do not believe.

 

I just never felt God's presence in my life and neither did my mother. When I was completely destitute and living on the streets and crying out for help, God didn't lend me a helping hand. In fact God does not help people at all, whether the homeless, the starving or the oppressed.

 

 

What make you think he will help you in this life?

 

God made a paradise for man but man rejected it so man was cast out of that paradise into the cruel would to fend for himself.

Only those who believe in him will enter paradise again.

 

Your concept of God appears to be based on an utter delusion, where did you get it from?

 

YOu seem to part of the something for nothing brigade.

 

Man's own greed play a large part in many of the things you mentioned.

 

His lust for earthly wealth and poverty in the wars and his choice of living in disaster prone areas.

 

His failure to provide sanitary living conditions for his fellow man, some live in luxury others

force to live in disease generating conditions.

Edited May 18, 2012 by esbo

[iNow]

God made a paradise fr man but man rejected it so man was cast out of that paradise into the cruel would to fend for himself.

Only those who believe in him will enter paradise again.

This is an interesting set of beliefs, but they are completely unsupported by fact. You could equally be here asserting that people who believe Zeus will be the ones who find paradise, or that Poseidon is guardian of those gates and people who reject him will not be allowed to enter. You could say such things for ANY human belief. Besides your own indoctrination and local culture, what reason is there to accept YOUR version of god as any different from those countless others that have been invented by humans for the past several thousands of years?

[esbo]

A much more likely explanation is that there simply is no god and nature is ultimately indifferent to us.

 

Or that there is a God and nature is ultimately indifferent to us because we rejected the paradise he created for us.

[sammy7]

for me personally when i realised neo-darwinian theory is void of all actual scientific evidence (see my other thread if you want to know) i was left with no other choice but to realise- wow wth genesis 1.1. is literal history of the world (not science cant prove it dont attack me just posting my belief/opinion lol) thanks for reading

[Phi for All]

for me personally when i realised neo-darwinian theory is void of all actual scientific evidence (see my other thread if you want to know) i was left with no other choice but to realise- wow wth genesis 1.1. is literal history of the world (not science cant prove it dont attack me just posting my belief/opinion lol) thanks for reading

Opinion is expressed along the lines of "It's been my experience that neo-Darwinian theory has no actual scientific evidence", or "I haven't been able to find any actual scientific evidence". "Neo-darwinian theory is void of all actual scientific evidence" is an assertion, a statement of fact, and you have to back that up with supportive evidence. Same thing with "genesis 1.1. is literal history of the world".

 

Nice try, but kind of weaselly.

[Moontanman]

for me personally when i realised neo-darwinian theory is void of all actual scientific evidence (see my other thread if you want to know) i was left with no other choice but to realise- wow wth genesis 1.1. is literal history of the world (not science cant prove it dont attack me just posting my belief/opinion lol) thanks for reading

 

 

sammy7, does the 9th commandment not count in your version of the bible? So far in "your other thread" you have been nothing but dishonest, i have pointed it to you several times now... hell fire must not be all that hot...

[seriously disabled]

Or that there is a God and nature is ultimately indifferent to us because we rejected the paradise he created for us.

 

Sorry but that is simply nonrational. It seems more likely to me that maybe God created something inferior or evil and that is why we reject it.

[sammy7]

Sorry but that is simply nonrational. It seems more likely to me that maybe God created something inferior or evil and that is why we reject it.

 

it depends which "god" you are talking about? buddha? allah? if it is the god of the bible you are referring to then everything can be answered by reading what he claims is his book-the bible.

[seriously disabled]

it depends which "god" you are talking about? buddha? allah?

 

I'm taking about the God 'Yahweh' who is also the demiurge in Gnosticism.

[sammy7]

lol sorry cant help you then (dont even know who that is)

[iNow]

[doG]

Tell me doG (God), assuming you are atheist why are you so obsessed with religion?

Not religion, truth! God should not be taught as a 'fact' because it is not one. It is a fraudulent meme taught to children when they should really be taught to be skeptics, to question everything. They deserve nothing less.

 

I don't think an agnostic position can be the safe and correct position, there is gnostic theism which says that the existence of god is provable and that the absolute truth can be known which challenges agnosticism and hence no position can be the honest position. Some don't have problem having both the worldviews or modules in their heads giving equal chance to both theism as well as atheism.

Who said agnosticism was a safe or correct position? I do think it's correct myself since I do believe man will never know the truth about deities, especially any supernatural ones. It's well and good for those that want to give an equal chance to the existence or non-existence of deities but they should understand that does not make them agnostic. If they do not have an affirmative belief that one or more deities exist then they are atheist, regardless of their position as a gnostic/agnostic.

[immortal]

Who said agnosticism was a safe or correct position? I do think it's correct myself since I do believe man will never know the truth about deities, especially any supernatural ones. It's well and good for those that want to give an equal chance to the existence or non-existence of deities but they should understand that does not make them agnostic. If they do not have an affirmative belief that one or more deities exist then they are atheist, regardless of their position as a gnostic/agnostic.

 

Yes, knowing and believing are not synonymous.

[esbo]

<br>Sorry but that is simply nonrational. It seems more likely to me that maybe God created something inferior or evil and that is why we reject it.<br>

<br><br>Well stop complaining the earth is not paradise when you rejected it!!<br><br>

<br>Not religion, truth! God should not be taught as a 'fact' because it is not one. It is a fraudulent meme taught to children when they should really be taught to be skeptics, to question everything. They deserve nothing less.<br><br><br>Who said agnosticism was a safe or correct position? I do think it's correct myself since I do believe man will never know the truth about deities, especially any supernatural ones. It's well and good for those that want to give an equal chance to the existence or non-existence of deities but they should understand that does not make them agnostic. If they do not have an affirmative belief that one or more deities exist then they are atheist, regardless of their position as a gnostic/agnostic.<br>

<br><br>Jesus preached to adults not children by and large.<br><br>Should we close all the schools then and only teach people when they are adults?<br> Edited May 19, 2012 by esbo

[doG]

Jesus preached to adults not children by and large.

What's that got to do with anything?

[seriously disabled]

Well stop complaining the earth is not paradise when you rejected it!!

 

You make the dangerous assumption that just because God created something then we have no right to reject it even if that thing is inferior or corrupt.

 

This kind of thinking is dangerous because it leads to fascism and oppression of the weak and I refuse to accept it.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christofascism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamofascism

Edited May 19, 2012 by seriously disabled

[esbo]

Avoiding burning in hell is one of my justification for believing in God.

 

But I would still believe in him even if there were no hell.

 

 

He's just one cool dude.

 

I mean I bet a lot of atheists spend their lives grovelling to authority and their bosses yet they are not

prepared to praise God for all he has done for them.

I find it strange especially when the bosses will toss you on the scrap heap when they have finished exploiting you. :lol:

Edited May 19, 2012 by esbo

[Moontanman]

Avoiding burning in hell is one of my justification for believing in God.

 

But I would still believe in him even if there were no hell.

 

 

He's just one cool dude.

 

I mean I bet a lot of atheists spend their lives grovelling to authority and their bosses yet they are not

prepared to praise God for all he has done for them.

I find it strange especially when the bosses will toss you on the scrap heap when they have finished exploiting you. :lol:

 

 

A Christian communist?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

 

Christian communism can be seen as a radical form of Christian socialism. Christian communists may or may not agree with various parts of Marxism. They generally do not agree with the antireligious views held by secular Marxists, but do agree with many of the economic and existential aspects of Marxist theory, such as the idea that capitalism exploits the working class by extracting surplus value from the workers in the form of profits and that wage-labor is a tool of human alienation that promotes arbitrary and unjust authority. Christian communism, like Marxism, also holds that capitalism encourages the negative aspects of human nature, supplanting values such as mercy, kindness, justice and compassion in favor of greed, selfishness and blind ambition.

[esbo]

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal

[iNow]

That is known as Pascal's wager. The argument runs as follows:

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/wager.html

 

If you erroneously believe in God, you lose nothing (assuming that death is the absolute end), whereas if you correctly believe in God, you gain everything (eternal bliss). But if you correctly disbelieve in God, you gain nothing (death ends all), whereas if you erroneously disbelieve in God, you lose everything (eternal damnation).

 

 

It's rather silly, as is made obvious when you try to extend it to ANY other topic, or even put forth a remedial review of the logic involved.