What is your justification for believing in a God?

[Iggy]

I think there is something to this, I have read, and I will if anyone is interested try to find a link to this, that it has been theorized that at least some of what we now call religion came from shaman who used psychedelic mushrooms and herbs to contact the spirit world.

I like the theory that Hinduism and some other religions first considered cows sacred because the mushrooms spontaneously generated in their dung are psychedelic. Priests or shamen thousands years ago first learning that cattle scat blooms with something that apparently opens the windows on the spirit world would be hard pressed not to proclaim some edict like "thou shalt revere the cow, man".

 

My justification for believing in god is personal experience. I believe that the universe as we know it is a single, higher being that we refer to as god. I believe that our perception of reality which is constructed of 4 dimensions (3 of space and one of time) and processed as a continuous stream we call consciousness is just a small offshoot from a larger pool of the consciousness of that higher being. We are all connected to each other through conciousness. We are all essentially that being, god, experiencing our self in a singular, subjective reality. I don't advocate psychedelic drug use but my perception of our world has been shaped by LSD and DMT.

Bill Hicks made it a news story,

 

"Breaking News: Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration -- that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here’s Tom with the weather."

 

--

[immortal]

Even the Mayan shamans used mushrooms which contained psilocybin, a variant of DMT (DiMethylTryptamine) which according to Rick Strassman's study causes hallucinations.

[seriously disabled]

After reading Richard Dawkins' "The Blind Watchmaker: Why the evidence of evolution reveals a universe without design" and "The selfish gene" I realized that religion is very probably false and is just a tool used to control people and keep them in line.

 

And after debating many God-believers, I realized that they are not very honest and truthful people. (See "Are all religions false?"http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/Are%20all%20religions%20false.htm).

 

My mother is even a stronger atheist than me and she always tells that she does not believe in any God because she has never felt his presence when I'm not feeling sure.

[doG]

...I am agnostic by trade....

Do understand that an agnostic position is not a position on the axis of theism. Either you have an affirmative belief that there are in fact one or more deities making you theist or you are atheist, i.e. not-theist.

 

Edited April 25, 2012 by doG

[doG]

...why not simply Pascal's wager taken to its logical conclusion? ie - an affirmative belief regarding some small probability of there being a diety-like thing.

[ecoli]

doG - giving equal probability to all possibilities

[doG]

why not simply Pascal's wager taken to its logical conclusion? ie - an affirmative belief regarding some small probability of there being a diety-like thing.

 

doG - giving equal probability to all possibilities

 

Now which one is it? A probability of there being a deity like thing or an equal probability either way?

 

At any rate I don't see the relevance anyhow. Theism implies belief in at least one deity. Anyone that is not theist is not-theist regardless of their belief as an agnostic. Either you have an affirmative belief that at least one deity exists or you are atheist.

[ecoli]

Now which one is it? A probability of there being a deity like thing or an equal probability either way?

 

Sorry I'm not being clear, I think. I mean assigning an equal probability to all possible diety-like beings. Ok so this gets tricky because many possible dieties will be mutually exclusive, but this does hint at a reasonable agnostic position.

 

At any rate I don't see the relevance anyhow. Theism implies belief in at least one deity. Anyone that is not theist is not-theist regardless of their belief as an agnostic. Either you have an affirmative belief that at least one deity exists or you are atheist.

please tell me what "implies belief in at least one diety" would mean in probability terms. A devout christian may believe that Jesus is the son of God and that other Gods don't exist with a p = .99. Since the distribution of possible Gods is basically continuous, assigning equal probability to any one existing results in p of almost surely zero for any given possibility, though this doesn't imply impossibility (we're talking about belief, here)

 

I am implying the binary status of god/not god might be too simplistic.

[doG]

Sorry I'm not being clear, I think. I mean assigning an equal probability to all possible diety-like beings. Ok so this gets tricky because many possible dieties will be mutually exclusive, but this does hint at a reasonable agnostic position.

 

 

please tell me what "implies belief in at least one diety" would mean in probability terms. A devout christian may believe that Jesus is the son of God and that other Gods don't exist with a p = .99. Since the distribution of possible Gods is basically continuous, assigning equal probability to any one existing results in p of almost surely zero for any given possibility, though this doesn't imply impossibility (we're talking about belief, here)

 

I am implying the binary status of god/not god might be too simplistic.

That is typical but it's really not exactly a binary position. On the one hand theists are those that believe there is at least one deity. On the other hand are those that have doubt or lack belief in a deity AND those that claim there are no deities. See negative and positive atheism. BTW, it has nothing to do with probability. Most negative atheists freely admit that the existence of a deity is possible but they stop short of believing as a fact that one exists.

 

Most of this group is agnostic as well meaning they have an affirmative belief that man can never know the absolute truth but this is also true of agnostic theists. That one can be an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist illustrates why agnosticism is not a degree of theism in between being theist or not-theist.

[rigney]

Do understand that an agnostic position is not a position on the axis of theism. Either you have an affirmative belief that there are in fact one or more deities making you theist or you are atheist, i.e. not-theist.

 

 

Please don't try confusing with basic logic about a correct definition of why I should or should not believe in God. We have run that gauntlet several times and I still can't state why I believe as I do. If there was proof of God other than than as a metaphor for a puzzle not understood, I wouldn't hesitate for a minute in becoming religious. But since there is no proof on that issue, I can't believe a God is out there. A higher power?, Yes. And by the same token, I believe there is a reason why we, and all other critters inhabit this planet, as well as billions of other planets throughout the universe.

[iNow]

But since there is no proof on that issue, I can't believe a God is out there.

Hence, the correct description for you is agnostic atheist, precisely as doG has been suggesting.

 

Did you even bother watching the video you chose to include in the text you quoted in your reply?

[esbo]

I find some religions to be scary. They create wars. Also people kill in the name of their God. Heaven and hell are two crazy houses. You have to die first to see your God. Give me a break.

 

The only religions that make sense to me, morally speaking, are Buddhism, Hinduism and maybe even Daoism and Confucianism.

 

Islam, Christianity and Judaism however hold no value to me because these religions seek to control and scare people into conformity and do not liberate them from their suffering, like Buddhism does.

 

There have been no religious wars, all wars are fought over material things, wealth land power.

OK the sides may have different religions or different eye colour, but they are not fighting over that.

 

The yanks are not in the middle east to crush islam, they are there for the oil!! Believe me!!

 

Very few people kill in the name of god and those who do are overwhelmimgly out numbered by those who don't.

And that's excluding abortion, a killing in the name of atheism!!!

[iNow]

And that's excluding abortion, a killing in the name of atheism!!!

[doG]

And that's excluding abortion, a killing in the name of atheism!!!

 

 

 

Kudos iNow. I tried to find something to amplify your message but I'm at a loss for words. They need a new word for the ultimate, epic fail that really describes these record setting fails you encounter from time to time.

[esbo]

Not sure what the face-palms are for Catholic religion forbid abortion.

 

Pity you have no facts to justify your face-palms!!

 

BUt what about the rest?

 

It's all true most murders and wars are over material possessions not religion.

 

White is a hair colour when all the pigment is gone.

 

Tell me doG (God), assuming you are atheist why are you so obsessed with religion?

 

I have a feeling you are like one of those Nazi gay bashers who turns out to be a closet homosexual, correct?

 

I mean I do not support Man U but I do not devote my life to hurling abuse to their fans!!!

[iNow]

Not sure what the face-palms are for Catholic religion forbid abortion.

Just because someone does not share your belief in your imaginary friend does not mean they perform abortions "in the name of atheism."

 

Pity you have no facts to justify your face-palms!!

This is a meaningless statement since people were responding to the tone, tenor, and content of your post.

 

It's all true most murders and wars are over material possessions not religion.

No, this is not necessarily true. That has neither been supported nor established. I understand this is your position, but at this point it is nothing more than an assertion. The more likely truth is that religion plays a role in reinforcing an us/them mentality wherein those who disagree are more easily categorized as "others" or as somehow alien. While I find myself agreeing that material possessions and power very likely have played a role in many atrocities, I cannot dismiss the vast evidence at hand that indicates differing religious beliefs played a significant role as well.

 

Tell me doG (God), assuming you are atheist why are you so obsessed with religion?

doG can answer for himself, but for me I like to try to minimize the amount of ignorance in the world, and religion quite often is one of the most profound sources of willful ignorance we experience in modern times.

 

I have a feeling you are like one of those Nazi gay bashers who turns out to be a closet homosexual, correct?

Is your intent to imply that the atheists responding to you here are closeted theists? I suspect that is not, in fact, correct.

[immortal]

That is typical but it's really not exactly a binary position. On the one hand theists are those that believe there is at least one deity. On the other hand are those that have doubt or lack belief in a deity AND those that claim there are no deities. See negative and positive atheism. BTW, it has nothing to do with probability. Most negative atheists freely admit that the existence of a deity is possible but they stop short of believing as a fact that one exists.

 

Most of this group is agnostic as well meaning they have an affirmative belief that man can never know the absolute truth but this is also true of agnostic theists. That one can be an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist illustrates why agnosticism is not a degree of theism in between being theist or not-theist.

 

I don't think an agnostic position can be the safe and correct position, there is gnostic theism which says that the existence of god is provable and that the absolute truth can be known which challenges agnosticism and hence no position can be the honest position. Some don't have problem having both the worldviews or modules in their heads giving equal chance to both theism as well as atheism.

[imatfaal]

Not sure what the face-palms are for Catholic religion forbid abortion.

 

Pity you have no facts to justify your face-palms!!

You could search high and low to find an abortion that was carried out in the name of atheism and fail. 2 minutes on google will find you murders of those connected with providing abortion services in the name of religion

 

/snipped

 

Tell me doG (God), assuming you are atheist why are you so obsessed with religion?

I am sure doG will reply with his reasons in due course. Personally I do not want any decision-maker who has influence over the way I live my life working on a huge misconception. I also argue with those who think homoeopathic medicine should be provided on the NHS for similar sorts of reasons - it gives false hope and stops resources being spent on realistic remedies.

 

I have a feeling you are like one of those Nazi gay bashers who turns out to be a closet homosexual, correct?

Comparing a rational and thoughtful poster to a dishonest vile hypocrite is pretty damned insulting - I think you should withdraw that comment

 

I mean I do not support Man U but I do not devote my life to hurling abuse to their fans!!!

Strange example - most supporters of any team other than Man U spend 180+ minutes a season hurling abuse at the Man U Prawn Sandwich brigade

[hypervalent_iodine]

1337225865[/url]' post='678307']

I have a feeling you are like one of those Nazi gay bashers who turns out to be a closet homosexual, correct?

 

!

Moderator Note

Play nice, esbo. Insults are not welcome here.

[esbo]

Just because someone does not share your belief in your imaginary friend does not mean they perform abortions "in the name of atheism."

 

 

This is a meaningless statement since people were responding to the tone, tenor, and content of your post.

 

 

No, this is not necessarily true. That has neither been supported nor established. I understand this is your position, but at this point it is nothing more than an assertion. The more likely truth is that religion plays a role in reinforcing an us/them mentality wherein those who disagree are more easily categorized as "others" or as somehow alien. While I find myself agreeing that material possessions and power very likely have played a role in many atrocities, I cannot dismiss the vast evidence at hand that indicates differing religious beliefs played a significant role as well.

 

 

doG can answer for himself, but for me I like to try to minimize the amount of ignorance in the world, and religion quite often is one of the most profound sources of willful ignorance we experience in modern times.

 

 

Is your intent to imply that the atheists responding to you here are closeted theists? I suspect that is not, in fact, correct.

 

religion prevents wars. no proof atheism prevents wars, why would it? It has no belief at all.

 

There is no proof in the assertion that religion causes wars so that would have to be established before I am required to show otherwise don't you think?

 

!

Moderator Note

Play nice, esbo. Insults are not welcome here.

 

Was not intended to be an insult, just an analogy, nothing wrong with being a homosexual or a national socialist is there?

Also the indicated it was intended in a jovial nature.

 

 

Is your intent to imply that the atheists responding to you here are closeted theists? I suspect that is not, in fact, correct.

 

 

Just pointing out that some atheists spend an indorinate amount of their live talking bout religion.

 

The analogy I shoudl have used is a football fan spending all his time on cricket sites - very odd don't you think?

 

 

Thus the suggestion that he might be a closet cricket fan seems a fair analogy.

 

I used the Nazi homosexual analogy not as an insult but as an fairly well know analogy.

 

There is a site here:-

 

http://gaynazis.com/

 

 

 

 

-- Many founding and high-ranking Nazis were homosexuals.

The evidence indicates that Adolf Hitler himself was a homosexual.

Persecution of homosexuals by the Nazis was for show to deflect from themselves and keep the German public fooled. And only feminine type homosexuals were then persecuted. The "Butch" homosexuals who founded Nazism viewed femmes as lower than heterosexuals, not even men. The persecution of a small percentage of Germany's femme gays was a public relations move to obfuscate the Nazis' own perversity and placate the German masses.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2012 by esbo

[iNow]

religion prevents wars.

How? What examples do you have of this ever happening in the past?

 

no proof atheism prevents wars, why would it?

Nobody ever suggested it did.

 

It has no belief at all.

Clarification: Atheism is not a belief system, but atheists still believe things. It's as if you're faulting people who don't believe in Apollo for "having no belief at all."

 

There is no proof in the assertion that religion causes wars so that would have to be established before I am required to show otherwise don't you think?

I think it's both established and common sense. There are different forms of religious belief, and different versions of religion. Any source of difference between large groups of people makes violence or crimes against them more common and more likely since there is an us/them mentality... a sense of jingoism... and this applies as well to wars.

 

It would be disingenuous of you to come here arguing that different religious beliefs play no role in human warfare. It is indisputable that they do. The only open question for debate is the magnitude of that effect.

[esbo]

How? What examples do you have of this ever happening in the past?

 

 

Nobody ever suggested it did.

 

 

Clarification: Atheism is not a belief system, but atheists still believe things. It's as if you're faulting people who don't believe in Apollo for "having no belief at all."

 

 

I think it's both established and common sense. There are different forms of religious belief, and different versions of religion. Any source of difference between large groups of people makes violence or crimes against them more common and more likely since there is an us/them mentality... a sense of jingoism... and this applies as well to wars.

 

It would be disingenuous of you to come here arguing that different religious beliefs play no role in human warfare. It is indisputable that they do. The only open question for debate is the magnitude of that effect.

 

 

Sorry, but religion creates a sense of one ness, why would people of the same religion fight?

 

It is not disingenuous of me to make that claim, it is rather arrogant of you to suggest that and further more to suggest

that you know all the answers and that it is 'indisputable' when you have provided not proof.

I mean you are just being arrogant and ridiculous beyond believe tot he point of delusion.

ie "it is both established and common sense".

 

No it is not, only in your imperfect mind is it.

 

Show your evidence, establish your claim it should not be too difficult to do given it is "established and common sense"

 

A lot of things which are "established and common sense" turn out to be utter nonsese so you saying that proves nothing what so ever.

 

You have to provide irrefutable evidence and I would advise you that I am pretty good at crushing false and half baked arguments

Edited May 18, 2012 by esbo

[hypervalent_iodine]

Have you ever been to Ireland?

[esbo]

Have you ever been to Ireland?

 

Why is there a war there?

 

If there is nobody told me!!!

 

 

The troubles in Ireland are not over religion but Nationality.

 

 

You need to do your homework!!!

 

I can list the ten biggest wars none religious - beat that!!!

 

 

This is gonna be an easy win for me!!

Edited May 18, 2012 by esbo

[iNow]

Sorry, but religion creates a sense of one ness, why would people of the same religion fight?

Neither your incredulity nor your personal invectives toward me nor your copious usage of LOLs are valid counter arguments or responses to anything I've shared or asked.