ayahuasca: healthy or dangerous?

[gib65]

For those who don't know, ayahuasca is a medicinal beverage with a long history among the amazonian shamans of central and south america. It typically consists of two brews which can be taken separately (one after the other) or mixed together. The first is a brew made from simmering the MAOI containing vine Banisteriopsis caapi in warm water, and the second is made the same way (simmering in warm water) with any of a variety of N,N-DMT containing plants (psychotria viridis, diplopterys cabrerana, mimosa hostilis, etc.). The caapi is important because without an MAOI, the N,N-DMT containing plant will not be psychoactive.

 

At the site www.ayahuasca.com, there is a quote that describes the experience as follows:

 

"It is an X-ray machine, not only of the health, but of the virtue, maturity, humility, and equilibrium of the person. Since very few of us are saints, the shock between what you think yourself to be and what you really are produces strong reactions... The truth is not that yajé is too strong for us, but that we are too weak for it... [it] is a battle and the field of combat is in your guts... All you have to do is to let the vine carry out its work, but without a sufficient experience... you are stuck between the nausea and your fear, which produces an unbearable anguish, because it is a nightmare that seems to have no end. The evil spirits that you see in this fix, which are reflections of the battle between the true and false self, take on a life of their own, so as well as the physical pain and distress of self-recognition, you have to deal with monsters.... The feedback between [the drinker's] fear and the fire in the guts drives the suffering into a spiraling descent, a circle so vicious and dizzying that he sometimes believes it will terminate in death.... There were still times when the terror was absolute, instants of dread that I will carry to my grave." -- Jimmy Weiskopf

 

source: http://forums.ayahuasca.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13107

 

Nonetheless, those who have gone through the experience swear by its healing power and many claim that their lives are better off for it. The shamans who practice the use of ayahuasca 'dreaming' (as they call it) are fully convinced that the plants involved are alive with spirit and communicate with the user and indeed are responsible for the "unbearable anguish" the subject undergoes.

 

My question is this: what would a trained doctor in modern western (i.e. North American or European) think of this? Would he/she ever give credence to this practice or the practitioner's claims? I mean, first of all, both brews (the caapi and the DMT containing one) make one sick to the stomach and with enough will result in vomiting. Any doctor from the western tradition would take that as a sign that you are ingesting something that isn't good for you. Then there's the psychological toll: these are truly hellish experiences and can result in PTSD. Again, doesn't look good from a modern western perspective. Also, taking MAOIs is not like eating candy. Those who practice ayahuasca drinking properly know that there is a rigid diet to be followed at least a day before and after the consumption of ayahuasca. If this diet is not followed, the subject may suffer from hypertension, intense headache, and in rare cases death. Finally, the plain fact is that it's a drug! Marijuana or acid can give you profound spiritually uplifting and life changing experiences. Does that mean doctors should go ahead and recommend it to people like they do health food and exercise?

 

Now I don't mean to convey any disrespect to other cultures' traditions, beliefs, or practices, but I see no reason not to allow myself to be disillusioned here. They are a culture, one among the world's plethora of them, and like any culture around the world and throughout history, they have their own beliefs, values, spirituality, practices, and if there's one thing that history teaches, it's that cultures can be... well, they can be wrong. They can be dramatically wrong.

 

So from a modern western scientific perspective, how would medical experts look upon the practice and taking ayahuasca?

[Shelley Watson]

I've heard about ayahuasca. But I actually don't know about it's reality. It has a lot of importance as it's highly associated with traditions, myths, therapies, rituals and aesthetics. It's roots are at the indigenous tribes of South America and has diverse to various places through various spiritual movements. There must be some reality in this, otherwise it hadn't taken such deep roots all across the world.

[tickle]

atoms couldnt be confirmed until the technology needed to accept them existed. who is to say that these drugs you speak of cannot do what the cultures say they can. we know very little about our existence believe it or not. we arent even sure where or what time we are really in. the big bang obviously happened, but what in reality was the big bang anyway? what time was it, and what was the universe before that happened? what complexities exist within the spectrum of laws that we have now? just because we cannot detect something invisible doen't mean that it isnt there! there may be alot to learn. i admit it sounds like fantasy, but i wouldnt think it sounded any stranger to hear of a round planet within my flat planet thinking really. we dont really know anything yet so why should so many hypothesis be thrown wayside? worm holes, why not, traveling through time, maybe, different realms or dimensions of reality, no way, it sounds hypocritical.

[Ayahuasca]

I lived with Ayahuasca shamans in a few different locations.... I even knew a formally trained Ph.D doctor who was also a shaman, who used natural medicines primarily in conjunction with crystals and other electromagnetic healing techniques... I watched this doctor heal cancer within a day using electromagnetic therapy and shamanic techniques.... I have taken the medicine myself a number of times myself and have experience... it is profound medicine, it will give you what you need to heal so long as you use it in the right way.... I also advocate LSD and Mushrooms as ways to glimpse profound spiritual states and communion with nature.... especially when used ceremonially or during mediation!

 

The realization is that the shamans in the amazon who are giving ayahuasca have healing techniques which are beyond that of western medicine, which is primarily limited to the use of external aids or substances aside from basic health advice which is natural......

 

The shaman can just sit with someone and take them into other realms of consciousness, even without external aids... you just sit there in trance and it happens, it is far outside of the boundaries of western medicine which survives only by destroying other life forms through the use of synthetic medications or aids which deprive the natural balance of life.... as a shaman I would tell you that western medicine itself is dangerous, and that using prescribed medications or entrusting your health to anyone outside of yourself or a qualified holistic healer is probably going to kill you in the long run, because you choosing a system which is based off of death instead of the forces which are harmonious to life..... all synthetic medications are coming from the destruction of the natural world and the rape/pillage of the earth....

 

If you want to do ayahuasca you could check out the Temple of the Way of Light which is a center in Peru where there are some number of qualified shamans who are giving dedicated ayahuasca ceremonies, which are female healers... in any event, it is a good medicine...... it helps you... you have to be in balance with nature, the reason people get sick on ayahuasca is because you are out of balance with nature.... Ayahuasca is a medicine because it shows you these imbalances, and brings them to the surface... if it kills you, then it is time to die... it is just like this... it won't kill anyone who is harmonious with nature..... it is only the people in the west who get sick from life that need ayahuasca to die.... it is like this....

 

The reality of course, is that it will most likely only make you vomit so long as you are intelligent and void the foods which are going to cause reactions which include anything containing Tyramine.... I can find a link for you of a list of foods which promote reactions... advertising links removed by Moderator, the second link here has more scientific explanations of the interactions with the MAOI chemicals and such which are contained inside of the brew..... it is best to eat very simple for some number of days before hand... at least 1-3..., or even fasting is ok... juice/water.... the traditional diet says plain fish without seasoning, yucca root, plantain, and rice are good foods which are indigenous to the regions in the amazon where it is growing.... normally never more than 4 foods combined, no seasonings, and all from the local areas which are prepared.... Of course most of the amazon is busy being butchered and slaughtered as we speak..... I have a non-profit charity which I am using as a vehicle to alleviate such things you can donate money by private messaging me....

 

In any event, most of these tribes which practice the natural Ayahuasca traditions were systematically eradicated by people who chose to feed their life into a machine instead of nature.... touche' computer.... eating the soul alive, gotta love it!

Edited February 23, 2012 by Phi for All
Advertising links removed

[Keenidiot]

You live in nature, survive to 30, 40 years of hard living and avoiding what ever's trying to kill you. Whether it's disease or predators or starvation.

 

I'm quite happy to have a life expectancy of 70-80 years and the ability to go camping, thank you.

[ayahuascacolombia]

Hello Guys

 

I grew up going to the Colombian AMazon, My mother a current healer and she learned from the masters and now she helps people from around the world. Ayahuasca heling shows how powerful thi mediciene can be. I believe ayahuasca can cure many psychological diseases such as depression and anxiety..

[John Cuthber]

" I would tell you that western medicine itself is dangerous, and that using prescribed medications or entrusting your health to anyone outside of yourself or a qualified holistic healer is probably going to kill you in the long run, because you choosing a system which is based off of death instead of the forces which are harmonious to life..... all synthetic medications are coming from the destruction of the natural world and the rape/pillage of the earth..."

 

Plainly nonsense since we live longer than we did before we had modern medicine.

 

" I believe ayahuasca can cure many psychological diseases such as depression and anxiety.. "

But Belief doesn't cut it any more in medicine, what do the double-blind studies say?

This thread should be in "religion" since most of the claims are nothing to do with science.

(In most cases, you could replace the use of drug(s) by "the power of prayer" and have an essentially identical thread).

The answer to the question which forms the title of the thread is, I suspect, "Both" like alcohol,

[ayahuascacolombia]

Anybody interested in having an awesome ayahuasca ceremony with my mom, who is one of the fewest Ayahuasca Grammas left from the amazon?? Please let me know..

[Ringer]

Anybody interested in having an awesome ayahuasca ceremony with my mom, who is one of the fewest Ayahuasca Grammas left from the amazon?? Please let me know..

Do you have evidence that this ceremony works better than current treatments or even placebo?

[primitiv]

Do you have evidence that this ceremony works better than current treatments or even placebo?

 

There have been a number of scientific studies into the use of ayahuasca, most notably in the fields of pharmacology, neurology, psychology and anthropology. Dr. Rick Strassman was the first to be allowed to administer DMT to subjects in order to study the effects of DMT, from which sprang the popular book "DMT: The Spirit Molecule". Since that time a number of studies have focussed on detailing the short term and long term effects of ayahuasca use, especially in the religious setting (Santo Daime, UDV etc).

 

I encourage you to read the collection of papers released by the International Center for Ethnobotanical Education, Research and Service (ICEERS), entitled Ayahuasca: Scientific Literary Overview conducted by José Carlos Bouso. It details the studies into clinical trials and short term effects, mid term, and long term effects, as well as the abuse potential.

 

here's the link: http://iceers.org/Documents_ICEERS_site/Scientific_Papers/ayahuasca/ICEERS2012_Ayahuasca_literature_compilation.pdf

 

The website is also quite informative, if not a little simplistic (but for its purposes of educating an almost completely ignorant public I think it's OK).

 

As I said, there's a whole heap of studies out there, but I'll list a few more that I can find lying around right now.

They may not answer your question Ringer, in terms of a direct answer, however to the best of my knowledge, the general academic concensus (drawn from scientific enquiry) at the moment is that it does have enormously powerful effects on human psychology and under particular circumstances there have been dramatic improvements to various health issues, such as depression, anxiety, drug abuse, PTSD and OCD. I'm certain a number of scientists interested in entheogens, altered states of consciousness and ayahuasca itself would say "yes there is evidence", however it's up to reading the academic literature, talking to lots of people who work with and study ayahuasca and of course, experiencing it yourself (woops almost forgot the most important part!).

Ayahuasca in Adolescence: Qualitative Results, Journal of Psychoactive Drugs; Jun 2005; 37, 2, p. 135

Authors: Marlene Dobkin de Rios, Ph.D.; Charles S Grob, M.D.; Enrique Lopez, Psy.D.; Dartiu Xavier da Silviera, M.D., Ph.D.; Luisa. K. Alonso, Ph.D. & Evelyn Doering-Silveira, M.Sc

 

Clinical investigations of the therapeutic potential of ayahuasca: rationale and regulatory challenges, Pharmacology & Therapeutics 102 (2004) 111 – 129

Author: Dennis McKenna, Ph. D.

 

Effects of ayahuasca on psychometric measures of anxiety, panic-like and hopelessness in Santo Daime members, Journal of Ethnopharmacology 112 (2007) 507–513

Authors: R.G. Santos a,∗, J. Landeira-Fernandez b, R.J. Strassman c, V. Motta a, A.P.M. Cruz a

 

Effects of the South American Psychoactive Beverage Ayahuasca on Regional Brain Electrical Activity in Humans - A Functional Neruoimaging Study Using Low Resolution Electromanetic Tomography, Neuropsychobiology; 2004; 50, 1, p. 89.

Authors: Riba, Jordi;Anderer, Peter;Jané, Francesc;Saletu, Bernd;Barbanoj, Manel J

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ayahuascacolombia]

Do you have evidence that this ceremony works better than current treatments or even placebo?

 

My mother helps patients from all around the world. It is a medicine based on spiritual healing..

My mother runs ayahuasca ceremonies year tound near Bogota, Colombia.. Would you like to join us in a ceremony?

For those who don't know, ayahuasca is a medicinal beverage with a long history among the amazonian shamans of central and south america. It typically consists of two brews which can be taken separately (one after the other) or mixed together. The first is a brew made from simmering the MAOI containing vine Banisteriopsis caapi in warm water, and the second is made the same way (simmering in warm water) with any of a variety of N,N-DMT containing plants (psychotria viridis, diplopterys cabrerana, mimosa hostilis, etc.). The caapi is important because without an MAOI, the N,N-DMT containing plant will not be psychoactive.

 

At the site www.ayahuasca.com, there is a quote that describes the experience as follows:

 

"It is an X-ray machine, not only of the health, but of the virtue, maturity, humility, and equilibrium of the person. Since very few of us are saints, the shock between what you think yourself to be and what you really are produces strong reactions... The truth is not that yajé is too strong for us, but that we are too weak for it... [it] is a battle and the field of combat is in your guts... All you have to do is to let the vine carry out its work, but without a sufficient experience... you are stuck between the nausea and your fear, which produces an unbearable anguish, because it is a nightmare that seems to have no end. The evil spirits that you see in this fix, which are reflections of the battle between the true and false self, take on a life of their own, so as well as the physical pain and distress of self-recognition, you have to deal with monsters.... The feedback between [the drinker's] fear and the fire in the guts drives the suffering into a spiraling descent, a circle so vicious and dizzying that he sometimes believes it will terminate in death.... There were still times when the terror was absolute, instants of dread that I will carry to my grave." -- Jimmy Weiskopf

 

source: http://forums.ayahuasca.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=13107

 

Nonetheless, those who have gone through the experience swear by its healing power and many claim that their lives are better off for it. The shamans who practice the use of ayahuasca 'dreaming' (as they call it) are fully convinced that the plants involved are alive with spirit and communicate with the user and indeed are responsible for the "unbearable anguish" the subject undergoes.

 

My question is this: what would a trained doctor in modern western (i.e. North American or European) think of this? Would he/she ever give credence to this practice or the practitioner's claims? I mean, first of all, both brews (the caapi and the DMT containing one) make one sick to the stomach and with enough will result in vomiting. Any doctor from the western tradition would take that as a sign that you are ingesting something that isn't good for you. Then there's the psychological toll: these are truly hellish experiences and can result in PTSD. Again, doesn't look good from a modern western perspective. Also, taking MAOIs is not like eating candy. Those who practice ayahuasca drinking properly know that there is a rigid diet to be followed at least a day before and after the consumption of ayahuasca. If this diet is not followed, the subject may suffer from hypertension, intense headache, and in rare cases death. Finally, the plain fact is that it's a drug! Marijuana or acid can give you profound spiritually uplifting and life changing experiences. Does that mean doctors should go ahead and recommend it to people like they do health food and exercise?

 

Now I don't mean to convey any disrespect to other cultures' traditions, beliefs, or practices, but I see no reason not to allow myself to be disillusioned here. They are a culture, one among the world's plethora of them, and like any culture around the world and throughout history, they have their own beliefs, values, spirituality, practices, and if there's one thing that history teaches, it's that cultures can be... well, they can be wrong. They can be dramatically wrong.

 

So from a modern western scientific perspective, how would medical experts look upon the practice and taking ayahuasca?

 

" I would tell you that western medicine itself is dangerous, and that using prescribed medications or entrusting your health to anyone outside of yourself or a qualified holistic healer is probably going to kill you in the long run, because you choosing a system which is based off of death instead of the forces which are harmonious to life..... all synthetic medications are coming from the destruction of the natural world and the rape/pillage of the earth..."

 

Plainly nonsense since we live longer than we did before we had modern medicine.

 

" I believe ayahuasca can cure many psychological diseases such as depression and anxiety.. "

But Belief doesn't cut it any more in medicine, what do the double-blind studies say?

This thread should be in "religion" since most of the claims are nothing to do with science.

(In most cases, you could replace the use of drug(s) by "the power of prayer" and have an essentially identical thread).

The answer to the question which forms the title of the thread is, I suspect, "Both" like alcohol,

 

 

 

Ayahuasca healing has an spiritual bades, not religious at all. Have u had the experience?

[John Cuthber]

 

 

Ayahuasca healing has an spiritual bades, not religious at all. Have u had the experience?

I didn't say the process was religious (though I think it is).

I said that your attitude- based on faith and anecdote rather than evidence is religious.

So what experiences I may, or may not, have had are not relevant.

[ayahuascacolombia]

I didn't say the process was religious (though I think it is).

I said that your attitude- based on faith and anecdote rather than evidence is religious.

So what experiences I may, or may not, have had are not relevant.

The spirit of AYahuasca heals the body and soul. Only when you experience the sacred ceremony you will understand how the medicine works. Indigenous people think of nature as a whole and It cannot be interpeted in religious beliefs. Are an atheist?

[EdEarl]

 

From: The Scientist

Using psychedelic drugs does not increase one’s risk of developing mental health problems, researchers show.

 

...

 

In a study appearing in PLOS ONE, the Norwegian team analyzed health data on more than 130,000 people chosen at random from the US Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration’s 2001–2004 National Survey on Drug Use and Health, of which 22,000 said they had used psychedelics at least once. The researchers found no links between the self-reported use of psychedelic drugs and a range of mental health problems, including general psychological distress, anxiety disorders, mood disorders, and psychosis.

 

“After adjusting for other risk factors, lifetime use of LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, or peyote, or past-year use of LSD, was not associated with a higher rate of mental health problems or receiving mental health treatment,” NTNU psychologist Pål-Ørjan Johansen said in a statement.

 

In fact, Johansen and his coauthor found that lifetime use of psilocybin—the psychedelic compound in “magic” mushrooms—or mescaline—the psychedelic agent in peyote—and past-year use of LSD were instead associated with reduced rates of serious psychological distress. They also found that lifetime use of LSD was associated with reduced rates of outpatient mental health treatment and fewer prescriptions for psychiatric drugs.

This study does not mention Ayahuasca AFAIK, but the ones it does mention apparently have similar psychedelic effects.

[John Cuthber]

The spirit of AYahuasca heals the body and soul. Only when you experience the sacred ceremony you will understand how the medicine works. Indigenous people think of nature as a whole and It cannot be interpeted in religious beliefs. Are an atheist?

So, still working on faith and personal belief rather than evidence then?

OK fine, that's not a problem: but it does mean that your beliefs are more religion than science

Edited August 23, 2013 by John Cuthber

[hypervalent_iodine]

!

Moderator Note

ayahuascacolombia,

 

Please stop trying to recruit people to your ceremonies and making unsubstantiated claims. While this is not your thread, you are still required to back up your statements and respond to genuine questions about what you are saying.

[ayahuascacolombia]

ok

[HemantM]

Ayahuasca is not just any psychedelic it’s known as an entheogen, which is a psychedelic that is used for spiritual purposes. This brew is very respected by the indigenous people of the Amazon, seen as a medicine, a healer, and a teacher. Ayahuasca can change your perspective and heal open wounds like no form of therapy

[John Cuthber]

. Ayahuasca can change your perspective and heal open wounds like no form of therapy

Or it can kill you.

http://jat.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/8/838.long

http://www.peruviantimes.com/14/american-found-dead-after-taking-ayahuasca/16785/

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/27/british-backpacker-dies-hallucinogenic-drug-colombia

[Moontanman]

 

My mother helps patients from all around the world. It is a medicine based on spiritual healing..

My mother runs ayahuasca ceremonies year tound near Bogota, Colombia.. Would you like to join us in a ceremony?

 

 

 

 

Ayahuasca healing has an spiritual bades, not religious at all. Have u had the experience?

 

 

Didn't someone die recently in on those ceremonies you speak of, it was in the news a few weeks ago, someone of some small fame if i am not mistaken.

 

Sorry John, cross posted...

Edited February 19, 2015 by Moontanman