BA Psychology ('11) applying to neuroscience or neurobiology programs ('12)

[DanEdition]

Hi everyone,

 

I am applying to neuroscience/neurobiology PhD programs that would start Fall '12, and I am looking for some guidance/comments/tips/assurance. I generally have competitive spec's for an applicant, but I am missing a lot of relevant coursework; I would like to know how realistic my goals are.

 

The type of research I am interested in is more towards the genes/molecules/cells end of neuroscience and definitely not anywhere near the psychology end of neuroscience. The problem is that I don't have much science coursework under my belt, which may limit my goals. I am enrolled in some science classes to start catching up, but I am afraid it might be too little and too late.

 

[i apologize ahead of time for being so long-winded].

 

Relevant background:

 

I graduated May of this year ('11) from a NJ state school with a BA in psychology, minor in biology. I graduated top of my class with 3.95, biopsychology honors, awards for 'academic and research excellence', and another interdepartmental award. I have a couple years of lab experience in both a neuropsychology lab (cogntion and EEGs and stuff) and a neurobiology lab (mice; mostly behavioral neuroscience; BTBR mouse model of autism). I have presented at two conferences (psychology conferences), and may have a psychology publication by December. I completed a thesis in the neurobiology lab, which I had to both write up and present in front of the honors college.

 

My GRE scores (1st and only attempt so far) are 570 V, 740 Q, and 4 writing (1310 total). In each of the sections I scored 80th-81st percentiles. I think I could probably do better, but I think these scores won't keep me out of a program (I mean I hope lol).

 

My biology minor consisted of the following classes: general bio I & II, behavior genetics, neuroscience, and neurophysiology of pain. I also have a very strong experimental statistics background.

 

I haven't yet taken general chem, organic chem, physics, calculus, genetics, cell/molecular bio, or biochem.

 

I am currently enrolled in physics I, gen chem I, and precalculus, so I will have physics II, gen chem II, and calculus finished by next summer (i.e. before I hope to start a program).

 

Questions:

 

I will definitely be applying to Columbia (neuroscience), Northwestern (neuroscience), University of Minnesota (neuroscience), and maybe Rockefeller. What are my chances for getting into schools like these?

 

Many neuroscience programs explicitly state that "Requirements for admission are quite flexible" (Columbia's website), but that's because their research ranges from molecules to cogntion, so they can't require too many science courses from people looking to study cognitive neuroscience. If I were to apply to one of these programs stating that I am interested in cognitive neuroscience, then I would be quite confident in my chances. If I indicate that I am interested in the molecular side of neuroscience, without having a good background in it, what would my chances be then?

 

There are multiple types of neuroscience related programs, and I would like to know how they differ from each other. There are interdepartmental (university wide; may include the medical school), neurobiology (biology dep't), and biomedical neuroscience (through the biomed dept at medical uni's). In what relevant ways do these types of programs differ? And what are my chances of getting into these types of programs, respectively (i.e. how much do each of the programs value thorough coursework?). What would my chances be for getting into high caliber neurobiology or biomedical neuroscience programs, relative to interdepartmental programs?

 

Programs:

 

I am definitely looking for schools that don't rush you through your pre-candidacy courses. Many programs require that you finish your coursework, pass a qualifying exam, and join a lab before your 2nd Fall semester (i.e. within 1 year of starting the program). I'm sure many students prefer this speedy approach, because they want to finish as quickly as possible. Since I need some catching up time I feel that 1 year is not enough for me to decide on a lab. I am seeking programs that are not so rigid about how quickly you finish your coursework/decide on thesis. I have learned a lot of organic/biochemistry and cell/molecular bio through hands on experience, so I don't think I would have trouble keeping up in the core classes, its just that I want time to master the facets of advanced biology before I decide on my thesis project.

 

I think that I have the best chance of getting into interdepartmental type neuroscience programs, but I suspect that I would be best off in either a neurobiology or biomedical program, because I like the very thorough and balanced education you get from biology departments, and I like the biomedical approach to solving real world medical issues. Many neuroscience programs make you learn about all facet of neuroscience, from molecules to cognition, but I have enough experience with neuropsychology to know it is not what I want.

 

My motivation for a career in neuroscience is two fold: 1) I have a strong desire to use my intelligence and hard work to accomplish goals that help people and give back to society (e.g., curing disease or alleviating suffering through science). 2) The eventual lifestyle seem quite agreeable. Doing research, teaching, or working in industry all seem like things I would love to do for the rest of my life.

 

Please any and all feedback would be much appreciated.

 

Thank you,

-Dan

[amanda more]

Hi everyone,

 

I am applying to neuroscience/neurobiology PhD programs that would start Fall '12, and I am looking for some guidance/comments/tips/assurance. I generally have competitive spec's for an applicant, but I am missing a lot of relevant coursework; I would like to know how realistic my goals are.

 

The type of research I am interested in is more towards the genes/molecules/cells end of neuroscience and definitely not anywhere near the psychology end of neuroscience. The problem is that I don't have much science coursework under my belt, which may limit my goals. I am enrolled in some science classes to start catching up, but I am afraid it might be too little and too late.

 

[i apologize ahead of time for being so long-winded].

 

 

 

 

Hi,

I kind of envy you.

 

It is too bad I had long decided not to teach. A pleasant cozy PHD program would have been nice.

 

You are so motivated that I think you will have little difficulty.

 

So I wonder where the world needs you most?

 

It is amazing what an easy read books on the brain are. It would be hard for an author to make them dull. But if you have done some of that let me suggest pubmed.gov It isn't that hard to identify the margins of knowledge from the books. Then use search terms on pubmed. See what cutting edge research you might already have some insight in. See which schools have done what.

 

That is the hard way though. Easier to talk a prof from the school you went to to get you in to a conference. The bars at conferences are great.

 

I think it is kind of neat that Madame Curie was slaving away turning pitchblende into radium while working on a PHD.

 

The cutting edge stuff is more experimental and so those laser tuned to getting their PHD's would often be chagrined to not have it pan out. Experiments don't always work.

 

I'm trying to think what I personally would like to see. Less neurotoxic pesticides. Cures for MS and MG. Autism. Alzheimer's. These have been either proven or somewhat shown to be autoimmune. I suppose for diseases then neuroimmunology is and will be huge. There is little appreciation for the tolerance that happens with antidepressants but I witnessed it in a loved one. This would then lead to science of addiction. Obesity also.

 

I kind of surprised myself here. Comparative physiology is amazing so it is astounding what can be done with fruit flies,frogs,rats. Basic knowledge of the neurology itself can show when and how it goes wrong.

 

Good luck. Oh and I would encourage you to slosh through differential equations( I assume you've had statistics). A lot of bio types could use a bit more math.

[Ringer]

I plan to go into a similar program so this is pretty much just what my advisors have told me, I'm a double major so I have 2. For a neurobiology program you probably want some experience in molecular and cellular biology because that is where much of the research is going on in the pure biological side. Also try to get the lab time in for both of those as well. Genetics is another that is looked upon favorably. I assume you did some physiological psych and behavioral neuro, which is pretty much the same class, so those will obviously be handy. You could also do computational neuro which is supposed to be pretty interesting, but fairly math intensive if you enjoy that. Cognitive neuro is also a pretty interesting field that is less intensive on the biological aspects and focuses more on the psychological underpinnings. As I said, I'm still in undergrad so this is pretty much what I've been told.

[DanEdition]

What I am really interested in, is whether or not I am viable candidate for 1) neuroscience (cell molecular concentration) or 2) neurobiology programs given that I have a lack of science coursework.

[Ringer]

You would have to ask the schools you wish to attend or your adviser for information like that. Many schools are different so I don't think anyone could make a generalization for all schools.

[herbbread]

So I'm currently a PhD student in Medical Engineering with a focus in Neuroscience/Neuroengineering, and I would say that you shouldn't worry too much about the classes. You are clearly very motivated and know what you want to do. In general (I can't speak to specifics of programs besides my own), I would say that grad programs, especially PhD programs, tend to care most about your research interests, your background in said interest, and the letters of recommendation you get from people you've done research with. The minor details of the coursework, while they can play a factor in admissions, generally come second to research related qualifications.

 

With regards to your interest in cellular/molecular neuroscience, I would agree with one of the previous posters in saying that the most important thing for you to do is to get research in a molecular/cellular neuroscience lab if possible. Is there any way to get a lab tech position while you're applying to programs? But even if you don't have the most experience this particular field, you've done quite a bit of research already, and this is already a plus. Just because you have less experience in cellular neuroscience doesn't mean you won't get into a neuroscience PhD program. They don't expect newly admitted PhD students to know exactly what they want to research. Biomedical programs might be right up your alley since they're so multidisciplinary and they'd love someone like you who has experience in several fields.

 

With that being said, I'd love to convince you to stay in systems neuroscience (just a personal bias). It's an amazingly rewarding field, and it's harder to get lost in the alphabet soup of gene/protein names while still understanding the big picture of what your research is doing. But I'm not going to discourage you from pursuing what you like, just a plug for my own field. All areas of neuroscience are equally important to explore.

[LawfulBlade]

If you complete your plan of doing those sciences this year, you'll be well equipped to begin the program. I've known two people to enter PhDs in neuroscience with a BA, neither of whom had taken any science courses at all. The program made an arrangement for them to take "basics of gen. chemistry and organic" classes at the local community college; upon successful completion, they were allowed to enter the program.

 

Just to let you know, one failed abysmally, and the other made it through without problem, but neither appeared to have any concept of how science proceeds. You, on the other hand, with your lab experience, are in an excellent position to make this decision. You know it's often repetitive, and that experiments often fail, and you need to take account and try to determine why. In addition to the chemistry you're acquiring, you'll be well set for the PhD.

 

An additional comment, organic chemistry, while an interesting field, has no real connection to anything you'll be doing, or to any other information. People take it to meet departmental requirements, and to get into biochem (where it also has no real connection...but at least you'll be used to viewing carbon backbones). So don't worry too much about your lack of it.

 

The universities you've selected are very competitive (unsure about UMinn), and if you're really interested in getting the degree, you should apply elsewhere as well. Please keep in mind, the ratings are mostly useless; if you're as motivated as you sound, you may well have more luck trailblazing at a less established program. They'll have more space for expansion, to maintain your project, if you so desire.

 

I've never heard of classes being structured like you're saying. Anywhere. :/ . Anyway, great luck on your future! You sound like you'll be a strong candidate.

[Genecks]

What I am really interested in, is whether or not I am viable candidate for 1) neuroscience (cell molecular concentration) or 2) neurobiology programs given that I have a lack of science coursework.

 

Yeah, you're fine. I don't know if you're a viable sperm candidate for a prestigious graduate program, though.

 

People who get that kind of GPA and have a decent background make me wonder what their issue is. Perhaps they've been so busy with coursework they haven't had time to find their interests. I suggest if you plan on putting in 5+ years of your life, you think really fast within less than a year (if you don't want to waste too much time) about what you want to focus on (or at least a general idea and find an institution that covers a spectrum of that idea and focuses in and out).

 

Anyway, what is missing here is a well-described representation of the kind of graduate research you want to focus on. Once you get that down, you'll be able to narrow what kind of professors you want to work with and what kind of research you want to do.

 

I know plenty of graduate students who just get into neuroscience research without really having a feeling for what they wanted to research in the first place. Maybe that's just my institution. Perhaps these are people who are drifters who met the GPA requirements and unsure of their next step in life.

 

If you really focus on studying biochemistry, you can get involved with the molecular side of stuff. I suggest going to graduate school and then saying you want to get involved with the neurochemistry of things and gain biochemical skills.

 

Personally, I think not caring about the psychology side of neuroscience is simply doing cytological research. You'd probably be better off researching developmental neurobiology at that rate, as there is a lot involved with genetics, proteins, and cellular development in that realm.

 

My primary interests are between brain repair/regen and its relation to memory and cognition. Thus, combining outward behavior with mechanics that are occurring inside an individual (bug, human, rat/mouse, w/e).

 

But I think it's seriously important to get involved with a research institution that covers a variety of research interests that you have, rather than a place that does neuroscience research but none that really interests you. Because I'm at a place that has a limited range of neuroscience research that I'm interested in. Personally, I think UCLA is a lot more interesting than UIUC or Northwestern. I'm sure Northwestern has some interesting stuff, but I've looked and found few things of interest besides prestige. Why? Lack of brain repair/regen research. Ugh.

 

Personally, I would like to take the world's neuroscientists and focus them on nervous system repair and regeneration. We get that puzzle cracked, and there is a lot of goodies inside.

 

I've taken some neuroscience classes with graduate students. Personally, I think many of those classes are absolute B.S..

 

Reason?

 

Well, I can recall the general overview neuroscience courses I took. These acted more like the professors advertising their research to the students. This absolutely p'd me off, because I did not care for a review course. I wanted to have some specialized, focused knowledge of neurobiology. Instead, it was miscellaneous information about neurobiology from different professors. Personally, I think a neuroanatomy course would be more valuable than someone talking about T1, T2, T3 aspects of the thoracic cavity and then moving onto some aspect of sensation and perception. Bah!

 

Other aspects were doing research similar to what other professors were doing. BORRRING! I had no care to do snail research and hear the dude defend the dying paradigm of his snail research, although I've gained an appreciation of invertebrate neurobiology from it all: This is a valuable paradigm in terms of understanding neurobiology networks and evolutionary aspects of organisms: Prime game for a person interested in mapping all that stuff out and looking at the intracies of how neurobiology networks are similar amongst species and then abstracting these aspects to other species, such as humans.

 

I personally would have been more interested in the synaptic plasticity of lamprey, because their anatomy is more close to human anatomy. I didn't get to do that.

 

If you know what you want to focus on, can find a graduate program that offers such focus, then go for it.

 

Personally, as of late, I've had this whole "the American educational system is broken; I'm thinking about going for the money because the guardians have turned corrupt" mentality.

 

You're fine. Programs will let you in. They'll teach you and bias you to think like them. But make sure you choose topics and professors of whose biases and knowledge you want to keep with you as a researcher.

 

Personally, I think that is what education is about and finding one's path as an academic/researcher. For some odd reason, the system is setup to prevent people from doing that the majority of the time.

 

Also, unless you were in labs that made you memorize/know the rxn mechs for bunches of organic reactions and in a lab that had you going through the machinery involved with cell signal transduction pathways, you don't know the bio or chem yet. I think orgo is worthless unless related to biochem. But the signal transduction stuff is seriously important and fundamental: You would get plenty of such in a developmental biology course.

 

Also, if you can, avoid organic... It's just mindless B.S. that will give you PTSD. I've not been given a chance to really use the majority (like over 90%) of the organic chemistry knowledge I gained in two semesters of organic chemistry. I think joining a biochem lab would be a lot more entertaining and useful, but if you tell people you won't be around longer than a year, they more than likely won't want you there. Biochemistry>Organic.

 

----

 

Additional info:

 

Of the graduate students I have come across, some do not have the biological background of a biologist. As such, it is often requested of them to take a course, such as cellular biology.

 

Essential Cell Biology by Alberts (most recent ed) should give you a general idea of the cellular biology involved. A genetics class is more logic and math based. I don't have a background of proteomics knowledge, so I can't really discuss what that's all about. But many cellular aspects are based on protein-gene interactions, and epigenetics is becoming a topic of increased discussion.

 

I don't think taking a year of organic chemistry is worthwhile. I think a semester of organic chemistry may be valuable in order to understand stereochemistry, nomenclature, and be schooled in thinking about pathways and flow-chart logic (rxn mechs). But first semester orgo is a bit of a shock to the system.

 

If you're willing to put in the time and effort, I'm thinking the graduate school would either just give you the graduate classes and tell you to do research and/or do that and make you take some undergraduate classes. There are also graduate level cellular biology classes if you're game for something like that. I suspect they are more intense... and that's probably not going to be too much fun (but practical to beat if you put in the time, visualization, and effort).

 

 

 

I haven't yet taken general chem, organic chem, physics, calculus, genetics, cell/molecular bio, or biochem.

 

I am currently enrolled in physics I, gen chem I, and precalculus, so I will have physics II, gen chem II, and calculus finished by next summer (i.e. before I hope to start a program).

 

 

Physics would more than likely be useful if you have a strong foundation in physics, thus modelling complex aspects of something, such as neural injury and how the brain changes on impact of some object.... Gen chem... everyone should have a year of that. But... I think it still involves a lot of inorganic molecules.... but the physical aspects of the chemistry describes can be applied to biological systems quite well. Calculus is useful for understanding the biophysics of signal transduction. There is a whole realm of biophysics to explore.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Genecks

[NeuroGermany]

Dear Dan,

 

you might also consider doing a combined master and doctoral program in Germany. You do not need to decide which lab you want to go during the 18-24 months master period. During this time you can do several lab roations and a master thesis in different labs to find out what is your favorite topic (and supervisor).

If you are intersting in more detailed information about the English taught programs in Germany you should have a look on the DAAD homepage. BTW, most Universities in Germany do not have tuition fees or only 500 euros per semester. In some of the Programs, f.e. in Tübingen, Berlin and Göttingen, the deadline is already on the 15th of January 2012 if you want to start in Fall 2012.

 

Good luck for your career in the neuroscience

[DanEdition]

Crazy... I am the original poster for this thread. I came across this thread while trying to google something else. 

I was admitted to the Neuroscience grad program at OSU in 2012, published more than dozen papers on neuroimmunology, and graduated top of m class in May 2017. I am in the process of looking for R1 faculty position now. 

[Phi for All]

31 minutes ago, DanEdition said:

Crazy... I am the original poster for this thread. I came across this thread while trying to google something else. 

I was admitted to the Neuroscience grad program at OSU in 2012, published more than dozen papers on neuroimmunology, and graduated top of m class in May 2017. I am in the process of looking for R1 faculty position now. 

How cool is THAT?! Congratulations, DanEdition, and best of luck on the staff position (although it sounds like you have something better than luck).