Why can't you get use to raw meat?

[questionposter]

How come no matter how many times you live through eating raw meat, your body doesn't make the right anti-bodies for it even though you survived it? I know different meat has different germs, but how come you will get sick the same way no matter how many times you eat raw chicken? You'd think you would have figured out a way to beat salmonella if your still alive after the first time.

[Moontanman]

I eat raw beef quite often, humans can indeed eat raw meat, I eat raw fish, shellfish, eggs, I've never tried raw chicken, to be honest it smells nasty to me, but raw lamb is good but raw pork often contains parasites or that is what is claimed...

[CharonY]

It is also a matter of amount of bacterial contamination as well as overall health status. If you are used to eating raw meat (and it is not totally rotten or too full of parasites) you have a better chance of not getting adverse health effects than someone not used to it. It remains a certain health hazard, though, like many things we used to do before we had tools to change things.

[tomgwyther]

It's not just the microbial life which will give you ill health effects. the microbes also give of toxins which are harmfull, even when the meeat is cooked.

[John Cuthber]

The bugs change. You can get salmonella poisoning lots of times just like you can get a cold lots of times.

[questionposter]

I noticed people said they eat other raw meats such as fish and lamp, but those animals are especially raised and/or given anti-bacterial vaccines and taken care of as to not have harmful bacteria in their muscles and fat. I'm talking about basically just eating a wild animal or an animal that isn't specially raised.

[Moontanman]

I noticed people said they eat other raw meats such as fish and lamp, but those animals are especially raised and/or given anti-bacterial vaccines and taken care of as to not have harmful bacteria in their muscles and fat. I'm talking about basically just eating a wild animal or an animal that isn't specially raised.

 

 

Ummm, you don't really believe that do you? I'd eat a wild animal, freshly killed, raw, way faster than anything farm raised... Hmmm oysters and hepatitis B....

Edited September 27, 2011 by Moontanman

[questionposter]

Ummm, you don't really believe that do you? I'd eat a wild animal, freshly killed, raw, way faster than anything farm raised... Hmmm oysters and hepatitis B....

 

 

Well, I heard news reports about problems with the vaccines farm animals receive and even talked to a chef who worked for Oice's (probably local restaurant) who said the sushi-grade tuna (raw tuna you can eat) was raised especially to not have harmful germs. Then there's even things like socking thin layers of raw mean in lemon jiuce to kill the bacteria.

Point is, we do all kinds of things to kill the germs in meat, because for some reason you normally can't naturally adapt raw meat from the wild. Maybe its because of that cold thing where there's many mutations, or maybe because of the bacterial/viral load varies, idk.

Edited September 27, 2011 by questionposter

[Moontanman]

Well, I heard news reports about problems with the vaccines farm animals receive and even talked to a chef who worked for Oice's (probably local restaurant) who said the sushi-grade tuna (raw tuna you can eat) was raised especially to not have harmful germs. Then there's even things like socking thin layers of raw mean in lemon jiuce to kill the bacteria.

Point is, we do all kinds of things to kill the germs in meat, because for some reason you normally can't naturally adapt raw meat from the wild. Maybe its because of that cold thing where there's many mutations, or maybe because of the bacterial/viral load varies, idk.

 

 

Well first off almost all if not all tuna is wild caught not specially raised and freezing kills the parasites, yes sushi is frozen and thawed before it is served to you. But farm raised animals all have antibiotic resistant bacteria in them and humans can eat freshly killed meat, and yes wild meat, but if it sits very long you have to sear the outside to kill bacteria but the inside is still raw and quite tasty and safe to eat. I'd have to see something other than a chief told me to believe your assertions about raw meat, humans can indeed eat raw meat, they often do but it's often tough and difficult to chew but we can eat it as long as it's not too rotted.

[LawfulBlade]

Several things, but I'm mostly reiterating what others have said:

 

Just as the bacterial composition in our guts and on our skin is constantly changing, the bacteria in the bodies of farm animals are also changing. I could eat, say, a raw chicken today, and not get sick, but eat another one tomorrow and get food poisoning from it. The types of bacteria in meat aren't guaranteed to be pathogenic. But we know that some animals *can* harbor bacteria that's often pathogenic to us, like trichinosis can live in pigs and will likely make us sick if we eat it, so we always cook pork.

 

In addition to this, bacteria that we are very accustomed to tolerating, like E. coli, for example, can develop a new serotype that's potentially lethal to us.

 

Another thing is that development of antibodies doesn't prevent you from getting sick, it helps your body fight off the infection. But as someone pointed out, many bacteria will secrete toxins as they're growing that are extremely dangerous to us, even if the bacteria themselves aren't. Teeny amounts of C. botulinum's toxin is enough to kill us, often long before our body will have a chance to mount an adaptive response.

 

People get sick not infrequently eating sushi, but keep eating it anyway because they love it. Unlike what Moon's saying, the fish is only sometimes frozen, and that's to keep it from decaying, not to kill bacteria (which it usually doesn't do completely, anyway). We live too far away from most of the sushi fishes' waters to get them fresh, but people that live close will eat them that way.

 

Heat and the soaking of meat that you're referring to are done for the same purpose, to disinfect the meat. One "cooking" method simply uses chemicals instead. With a powerful enough substance to soak it in, I'll eat beef totally raw.

 

Antibiotics are put as preventatives into chicken feed, but are often not used continuously in beef cattle. Most beef cattle will get an antibiotic injection prior to going to the slaughterhouse, however, as they're at high risk of getting a lethal infection there, and dying just before the money is recouped. In both cases, the antibiotics are administered to keep the animals healthy; it has nothing to do with making them safe for us.

 

I'm not sure about the report you heard on tunas, but if you were attempting to prevent every possible infection, they'd need to be raised in a biobubble, which, while theoretically possible, the cost would be prohibitive. Perhaps being farm raised just kept them from getting the major thing they're able to pass to humans. In the case of seafood, there's an additional concern regarding red tide (and other toxic blooms), and it's downstream acquisition into our foods. As a final note, although this doesn't connect to anything other than my stream of consciousness, red tide is known to make seagulls go crazy and start attacking people, as they've eaten fish contaminated with the toxin. This is what the Hitchcock move "The Birds" was based on. Have a good night.

[Moontanman]

People get sick not infrequently eating sushi, but keep eating it anyway because they love it. Unlike what Moon's saying, the fish is only sometimes frozen, and that's to keep it from decaying, not to kill bacteria (which it usually doesn't do completely, anyway). We live too far away from most of the sushi fishes' waters to get them fresh, but people that live close will eat them that way.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sushi

 

Health risks

Some large fish, such as tuna (especially bluefin), can harbor high levels of mercury. This is due to the tuna's position at the top of the food chain (among sea creatures). Thus, tuna can lead to mercury poisoning when consumed in quantity.[18] The FDA recommends, for certain groups (women who might get pregnant, pregnant women, nursing mothers and young children), eating a maximum of 12 ounces a week of a variety of fish and shellfish.[19]

Parasite infection by raw fish involves mainly three kinds of parasites: Clonorchis sinensis (a trematode/fluke), Anisakis (a nematode/roundworm) and Diphyllobothrium (a cestode/tapeworm).[citation needed] Infection risk of anisakis is particularly higher in fish which may live in a river such as salmon (shake) in Salmonidae, and mackerel (saba). Such parasite infections can generally be avoided by boiling, burning, preserving in salt or vinegar, or freezing overnight.

For the above reasons, the EU regulation No 853/2004[20] forbids the use of fresh raw fish; it has to be frozen at temperatures below −20 °C in all parts of the product for no less than 24 hours.

Some forms of sushi, notably those containing pufferfish fugu and some kinds of shellfish, can cause severe poisoning if not prepared properly. Particularly, fugu has a lethal dose of tetrodotoxin in its internal organs and must be prepared by a licensed fugu chef who has passed the prefectural examination in Japan.[21] The licensing examination process consists of a written test, a fish-identification test, and a practical test, preparing and eating the fish. Only about 35 percent of the applicants pass, and in rare cases, death results.[22][not in citation given] The Emperor of Japan is forbidden to eat fugu, as it is considered too risky.[23]

Edited September 28, 2011 by Moontanman

[LawfulBlade]

Can you maybe add some of your own words to this? I'm not sure why you posted this quote, in all honesty. Neither mercury nor tetrodotoxin would be affected by cooking, freezing, or eating raw, nor can you develop immunity to them like the OP was asking about, and, as such, has no connection to the topic. In large part, the same can be said about the parasites, as it isn't parasitic infections that he's asking about, but bacterial food poisoning instead...and immunity to flukes is nearly impossible to develop.

 

Are you in the EU? There's no prohibition about serving fresh, raw fish (never frozen) in the US; in fact, the very Wikipedia article you're quoting refutes two of your claims directly: it states outright that freezing won't kill all harmful microorganisms, and that the US doesn't require freezing of fish for sushi. Your link also contests your claim that wild is somehow safer to eat than farmed. You're correct, however, in that it does kill flukes. I was unaware of the effects of freezing on parasites. If you meant a different interpretation, I would be open to hearing it.

[Moontanman]

Ok, every one is making some assumptions here and we need to weed them out, first of all I was assuming that parasites was referring to multi-cellular organisms not bacteria, (my bad) the bacteria on dead meat cannot really be termed parasites, they are like opportunistic scavengers, a parasitic bacteria would be one that causes disease like diphtheria, E coli is really a commensal organism that occasionally becomes disease producing for various reasons but we could not live with out our commensal bacteria.

 

The bacteria that live on dead or rotting meat produce the poisons as a defense mechanism to protect their food source, in other words to keep other animals from eating it, unless you want to call a Lion or a Hyena that is protecting a kill it scavenged a parasite I think it is incorrect to call them parasites. A disease on the other hand implies a Bacteria that seeks out other living organisms and colonizes them. For the most part this is not true of the bacteria that feed on dead organisms (there are of course exceptions but generally not in this context, anthrax comes to mind immediately)

 

If you think you are getting fresh raw fish in your sushi then you should not eat it. Most seafood unless you happen to live very near where it is caught is frozen, tuna and many other fish is almost always frozen before it comes to market, I am familiar with fish markets and fish, especially big ocean going fish are often frozen, generally it is frozen on board the fishing boats before it ever gets to port. Most other fish is frozen the same way unless you live where the fish is caught and are dealing with small scale fishermen. On the other hand there are fish that are unlikely to have these parasites but it is not a 100% sure thing. Eating raw fish is especially dangerous due to many parasites that live in fish that include mammals as part of their life cycle and we are mammals...

 

It is correct that neither mercury or tetrodotoxin is removed by freezing, I bolded the significant passages in the quote i sent in my post. I did not mean to insinuate they would be removed by freezing, on the other hand cooking does not remove mercury, I do not have any information about tetrodotoxin in that context but i wouldn't want to chance it.

 

So before we really discuss we need to make sure we are all on the same page, what are talking about when we say parasites? btw very little tuna is farmed, almost all of it is wild caught.

 

I never claimed that freezing kills all microorganisms, it obviously does not, in fact some bacteria can continue to grow at below freezing temperatures, all though very slowly.

 

I do not see how my quote disputes the wild meat vs farmed meat idea, can you point it out?

 

I do eat raw beef and or lamb occasionally but i prefer to sear the outside and leave the inside cold and raw but these meats are inspected to make sure they do not contain parasites (I hope... ) BTW, beef tastes much better after it has aged (think partially rotten ) I would not eat raw chicken because they live in a commensal relation ship with salmonella and that is a problem if the meat is accidentally exposed to the contents of the gut. Of course I live on the sea coast and eat raw oysters regularly and it is safe to assume I am infected with hepatitis b, something like 40% of the population on the coast is infected by that organism.

 

 

We all eat lots of things we make many false assumptions about.... and BTW trichinosis is not a bacterium...

Edited September 28, 2011 by Moontanman

[Psycho]

I will ask a simplified question.

 

Why can't the body digest (sterile) raw meat properly? (or can it?)

 

Assume it's a magic sterilisation process that doesn't use heat, pressure or degrading radiation.

 

Surely acid hydrolysis from HCl, as well as enzymatic breakdown (pepsin, trypsin) doesn't require a cooked substrate to be effective?

 

Or is it purely the fact that the meat is only kept in the stomach for around 3-4 hours and therefore full catalysis doesn't have time to occur? This would of course lead to large particles still being present causing an obstruction or hindrance that may cause pain as well as a lack of nutrition being received due to ineffective release of amino acids.

Edited October 7, 2011 by Psycho

[Moontanman]

Where is this assertion that humans cannot eat raw meat coming from? Can anyone support it with anything but "it's just common knowledge"? Raw meat can indeed be eaten by humans, ask a navy seal or some other "human" that has been trained in survival skills. yes it can make you sick so can cooked meat if it has sit too long. Humans even eat rotten meat, ever hear of Aged Basking shark? Even the beef we eat is aged (read rotten) to make it tender and better tasting. I don't understand where the idea that humans cannot eat raw meat is coming from.....

[Psycho]

Where is this assertion that humans cannot eat raw meat coming from? Can anyone support it with anything but "it's just common knowledge"?

The fact that you can't in most circumstances (without becoming ill) due to the risk bacterial and parasitic infection, my question was purely hypothetical removing these factors to understand if that is the only reason or if it is due to the underlying chemistry.

 

Aged meat is aged in preservatives such as salt or others normally as to stop bacterial or parasitic infection so that really isn't a good example, also with fish it isn't a good comparison as they live within salt water which naturally kills bacteria that could successfully colonise humans.

[John Cuthber]

"Even the beef we eat is aged (read rotten) to make it tender and better tasting."

Not really. There's a difference between waiting for rigor mortis to pass and waiting for bacterial action to get underway. If they really wanted it rotten they wouldn't hang it in cold rooms.

 

"Also, to prevent bacteria developing on the meat, the room must be kept well ventilated. The meat must be furthermore checked on in regular intervals to ensure that the meat does not spoil and the process is working correctly"

 

from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging_(meat)

[Moontanman]

"Even the beef we eat is aged (read rotten) to make it tender and better tasting."

Not really. There's a difference between waiting for rigor mortis to pass and waiting for bacterial action to get underway.

 

Really? Bacterial action is not rotting?

 

If they really wanted it rotten they wouldn't hang it in cold rooms.

 

umm quite possibly they want to control the bacterial action (rotting) so they control the bacterial growth (rotting) by temperature manipulation....

 

"Also, to prevent bacteria developing on the meat, the room must be kept well ventilated. The meat must be furthermore checked on in regular intervals to ensure that the meat does not spoil and the process is working correctly"

 

Again, is this not just controlled bacterial digestion (rotting)?

 

from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging_(meat)

 

 

Your link was a dead end, aged beef is indeed rotten, it is allowed to hang for several days at specific temperatures to allow bacteria to soften the meat, if you go to a grocery store and buy out of date steaks you'll find them very tender and tasty, just par the greenish black parts off, the only reason the steaks you buy in the store are nice red and appear fresh is because they expose them to CO, makes the meat bright red, if not is would be brown or even black when you bought it , in many cultures meat is aged, some times for years as bacteria change it to a more edible form but it is still in essence rotting.

 

If we were stranded out In the bush or what ever they call it where ever you live and we caught and killed a small animal like a rabbit or even managed to bring down a deer do you think it would poison us to eat it raw? Not hardly, now if we allowed it to rot a couple days or so in the heat it might (if we were used to eating raw rotten meat our internal bacterial fauna might give us the ability to eat it in a more rotten state) but while raw meat can indeed introduce parasites, most carnivores get these as well, we can digest it and get nutrition from it. Cooking just makes it easier to digest but we can digest raw meat.... most carnivores can eat it in a much more rotten state than we can due to adaptation and internal bacteria so...

 

One thing to remember, rotten and raw are not the same thing....

Edited October 10, 2011 by Moontanman

[John Cuthber]

You don't seem to have understood

"There's a difference between waiting for rigor mortis to pass and waiting for bacterial action to get underway."

 

One is what they do and the other is what you say they do.

So, as you say

"Really? Bacterial action is not rotting?"

Well, actually it is. That's my point. They take quite a lot of care to make sure that it doesn't happen.

 

"Again, is this not just controlled bacterial digestion (rotting)? "

No it's not.

 

This

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging_(meat)

isn't a dead end but the forum's software excludes the last bracket from the URL. So, when you get presented with a page that says " did you mean..." which is essentially the same as the title given, you can click on it and find it explains that "Meat hanging allows processes to continue in the meat that would normally cease in dead animals. For example, the muscles in the meat continue to use the oxygen that is in the proteins of the blood. This normal biological process creates a chemical by-product known as lactic acid. Since the blood is no longer being circulated through the body, the lactic acid starts to break down the muscle and connective tissues around it"

 

Note the lack of bacteria and rotting.

Edited October 10, 2011 by John Cuthber

[Moontanman]

You don't seem to have understood

"There's a difference between waiting for rigor mortis to pass and waiting for bacterial action to get underway."

 

One is what they do and the other is what you say they do.

So, as you say

"Really? Bacterial action is not rotting?"

Well, actually it is. That's my point. They take quite a lot of care to make sure that it doesn't happen.

 

"Again, is this not just controlled bacterial digestion (rotting)? "

No it's not.

 

This

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging_(meat)

isn't a dead end but the forum's software excludes the last bracket from the URL. So, when you get presented with a page that says " did you mean..." which is essentially the same as the title given, you can click on it and find it explains that "Meat hanging allows processes to continue in the meat that would normally cease in dead animals. For example, the muscles in the meat continue to use the oxygen that is in the proteins of the blood. This normal biological process creates a chemical by-product known as lactic acid. Since the blood is no longer being circulated through the body, the lactic acid starts to break down the muscle and connective tissues around it"

 

Note the lack of bacteria and rotting.

 

Are you suggesting I hang my self? this is the first two paragraphs from your link

 

Hanging is the lethal suspension of a person by a ligature. The Oxford English Dictionary states that hanging in this sense is "specifically to put to death by suspension by the neck", though it formerly also referred to crucifixion and death by impalement in which the body would remain "hanging".

Hanging oneself is also used to describe a method of suicide in which a person applies a ligature to the neck and brings about unconsciousness and then death, by means of partial suspension or partial weight-bearing on the ligature. This method has been most often used in prisons or other institutions, where full suspension support is difficult to devise. The earliest known use of the word in this sense was in A.D. 1300.[1]

 

the first link went to this

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I think what we have is a failure to communicate, with in minutes at least meat begins to spoil, the amount of spoilage is what we are talking about, your definition of rotten is different from mine, in mine, cheese is rotten milk....

[lightburst]

So is it possible to somehow 'adapt' or 'grow into' a 'primitive' diet, that is raw meat and not the fancy stuff but like shooting random edible game then eating it raw? As barbaric as it sounds I was told some people eat water bison meat while it's alive. Whether this is cultural is beyond me, maybe just societal. I'd can't say they do this normally in the provinces on my country though. However your discussion somehow makes me think otherwise as far as safety goes if you do raw meat as a regular diet.

 

Live like a caveman, if you will.

Edited October 16, 2011 by lightburst

[John Cuthber]

Lets see if this link works.

 

Oh Good! it seems to direct to the right wiki page now.

Incidentally,

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110901132620AATlFPK

Edited October 16, 2011 by John Cuthber

[Moontanman]

Lets see if this link works.

 

Oh Good! it seems to direct to the right wiki page now.

Incidentally,

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110901132620AATlFPK

 

 

Thanks John, I concede your point... Those other links had me wondering if you wanted me to hang myself...