God. Profit from Murder and Genocide? Get serious.

[Greatest I am]

God. Profit from Murder and Genocide? Get serious.

 

When reading the Bible, the facts show God as setting a ransom for forgiving man. That ransom was Jesus. God then sets the conditions to have Jesus murdered. Thus is how all sins, for all of eternal time, are forgiven. God does not do anything half way. After all, He would not want to break his own word and sin again.

 

Eze 18:20

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

Psa 49:7

None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him.

 

Father God screwed up and he is having his son Jesus bear the iniquity that he himself created. An insane act.

 

No sane God would waste a son so needlessly. This is obvious I think to most.

 

This is the conclusion that one must come to, if we make Jesus part of the Trinity. This is unacceptable, as God would not murder his son.

 

This kills the Trinity notion.

 

Otherwise, God Goes straight to hell for murder.

 

As above, so below. The believers duty is to follow God’s example. The first commandment.

 

If you would NOT do such, ( murder your own son ), and you are of the Abraham religions, then you are not a true follower. You have placed yourself above God.

 

Rather a catch 22.

 

The genocide of Noah’s day would also be an example of God profiting from murder. At a wholesale price. It boils down to God having a reality that he did not like, to a position of God having a reality that he liked better. Strangely, some even say that God does not change.

 

The God that I know does not work that way.

 

If your God does, and you follow this God, you should question why you do.

 

To follow your God, you would have to be willing to kill your own children, as well as use genocide on the rest of mankind, as you follow an unfathomable, impossible to understand, alien God.

 

How does that make you feel?

 

Poorly I hope. Does it make you want to trade in your God for a new and improved model?

 

One who will not ask you to go insane with him. All that just because he found something that he did not create. Iniquity. This, God had to learn as he had not known it was in him.

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

[mooeypoo]

!

Moderator Note

Greatest I am, your post doesn't really give much of an opportunity to debate. This isn't a personal blog or a soapbox - we're here to debate, not antagonize and patronize.
If there's a question you want to raise, please clarify it better -- and do it in a civil manner.

[qijino1236]

I ain't no dogmaee follower,.I am just a humble evolution believin', big bang theory, parrallel universes, e=mc^2, finder outer if true through that there sciency method they are all talkin' bout. I also go to church to hear them morality tales that guy with the mike talks 'bout. Last week he was talkin' 'bout how that ye olde lady that likes to sing about liven' the ya want to and not worryin' bout how ya look, weird stuff like that, I think she was singin' bout being born someway or this way or that. I was thinkin' though even though we ain't 5,000 years old, and we don't fear god nowadays, that his story last week 'bout that ye olde lady was something I might, and other peeps, and youngins might like to think bout from time to time. I might or might not be a humble christian atheist, I don't know, but I sure like the sound of that "romance that goes bad" song. It makes me happy and wantin' to sing and dance to mountaintops of the rockies and find out where them there autotrophs on the stromatolites high in the Canadian Rockies came from. So where in the HELL did they from?

Edited September 29, 2011 by qijino1236

[deluxe]

God. Profit from Murder and Genocide? Get serious.

 

When reading the Bible, the facts show God as setting a ransom for forgiving man. That ransom was Jesus. God then sets the conditions to have Jesus murdered. Thus is how all sins, for all of eternal time, are forgiven. God does not do anything half way. After all, He would not want to break his own word and sin again.

 

Eze 18:20

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

Psa 49:7

None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him.

 

Father God screwed up and he is having his son Jesus bear the iniquity that he himself created. An insane act.

 

No sane God would waste a son so needlessly. This is obvious I think to most.

 

This is the conclusion that one must come to, if we make Jesus part of the Trinity. This is unacceptable, as God would not murder his son.

 

This kills the Trinity notion.

 

Otherwise, God Goes straight to hell for murder.

 

As above, so below. The believers duty is to follow God's example. The first commandment.

 

If you would NOT do such, ( murder your own son ), and you are of the Abraham religions, then you are not a true follower. You have placed yourself above God.

 

Rather a catch 22.

 

The genocide of Noah's day would also be an example of God profiting from murder. At a wholesale price. It boils down to God having a reality that he did not like, to a position of God having a reality that he liked better. Strangely, some even say that God does not change.

 

The God that I know does not work that way.

 

If your God does, and you follow this God, you should question why you do.

 

To follow your God, you would have to be willing to kill your own children, as well as use genocide on the rest of mankind, as you follow an unfathomable, impossible to understand, alien God.

 

How does that make you feel?

 

Poorly I hope. Does it make you want to trade in your God for a new and improved model?

 

One who will not ask you to go insane with him. All that just because he found something that he did not create. Iniquity. This, God had to learn as he had not known it was in him.

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

 

 

Well first of all you have to understand what the bible actually says.

 

The first man Adam was disloyal to God. It was a question of loyalty. Adam was perfect, but with free choice. We are not robots.God only wants people that want to follow him. Because Adam lost his life and perfection he passed that on to alll men. Becasue God cares for man, he give him length of time to go his own way. But warned throughout the bible of the results. We see that today, and throught mans history.

 

Now God cared for man so much that he gave his Son Jesus, life, to ransom back the perfect life lost. Think about this, would you give up your son for that lives of others? That is what God did.

So any deaths or any pain or suffering, is totally from Satan's and mans hands . No one elses. Satan took on the rulership of mankind when Adam followed him , instead of God.

 

 

The bible was written about the people of those times but is for the people that came after the bible was written.

 

Everything we need to know about God is in the bible.

After Jesus, Christians were not to learn war anymore. We have the example in Jesus. That means that Chrsitians that get involved in governments and wars etc, are not following God.. They are what the bible calls false worshipers. Satan is the ruler of the world, and as such includes governments, and religions.( includeing Christendom.)

 

So what we are looking at, in this world is casued by Satan and man, not God. He never want this for us.

 

So what the means is, if some are not for God they are agianst him. And all the mess we see is thier own fault.

Edited September 30, 2011 by deluxe

[Phi for All]

Well first of all you have to understand what the bible actually says.

 

The first man Adam was disloyal to God. It was a question of loyalty. Adam was perfect, but with free choice. We are not robots.God only wants people that want to follow him. Because Adam lost his life and perfection he passed that on to alll men. Becasue God cares for man, he give him length of time to go his own way. But warned throughout the bible of the results. We see that today, and throught mans history.

But loyalty is not something you're born with, or that gets bestowed upon you at a certain point. You need to prove your loyalty every day of your life. That part never sat well with me. Adam chose to sin, so God punishes everyone. Maybe it's just an ingrained aversion to prejudice, but that seems so monumentally cruel for a loving god. "You're automatically a sinner the day you're born, I'm not even going to give you a chance to prove your loyalty."

 

And I'm sorry, but it seems like Christianity gets to have it both ways when it comes to omnipotence and perfection. God can do anything, even thwart His own physical laws, creating any kind of paradox He wants. And He's perfect even though He created imperfection.

[deluxe]

But loyalty is not something you're born with, or that gets bestowed upon you at a certain point. You need to prove your loyalty every day of your life. That part never sat well with me. Adam chose to sin, so God punishes everyone. Maybe it's just an ingrained aversion to prejudice, but that seems so monumentally cruel for a loving god. "You're automatically a sinner the day you're born, I'm not even going to give you a chance to prove your loyalty."

 

And I'm sorry, but it seems like Christianity gets to have it both ways when it comes to omnipotence and perfection. God can do anything, even thwart His own physical laws, creating any kind of paradox He wants. And He's perfect even though He created imperfection.

Actually in man he did not create imperfection. Because your perfect doesn't mean have to go a certain direction. It doesn't mean you know everything. you are perfect for what you were created for. Adam had free will. He was not lacking anything. The same with Satan. Satan made himself the Satan (which means resistor. He lacked nothing.

Many people think that been perfect means you are all robots doing the same thing. That is not correct. We all have different personalities.

That is why loyalty was the sin, then disobedience. Adam knew God created him and then created Eve. He had many dealing with God for a long time, before Eve came. He also know what death was. He saw the animals die. God told him that the tree meant death for him if he ate from it. Adam went against God .

If you are a scientists and you and a partner are working on some experiments, and you are the boss or lead scientists. You work with your partner for years. But one day on a whim, your partner just decides to go somewhere else, and use what you have taught him over the years. Would you not be hurt from the the disloyalty? You also know that your partner, would get in trouble because he does know everything. But you let him learn his own lesson, he is not forced to stay with you.

This is what condition we are in now. But God said he would step in before man ruined the earth.

Edited September 30, 2011 by deluxe

[Greatest I am]

Well first of all you have to understand what the bible actually says.

 

The first man Adam was disloyal to God. It was a question of loyalty. Adam was perfect, but with free choice. We are not robots.God only wants people that want to follow him. Because Adam lost his life and perfection he passed that on to alll men. Becasue God cares for man, he give him length of time to go his own way. But warned throughout the bible of the results. We see that today, and throught mans history.

 

Now God cared for man so much that he gave his Son Jesus, life, to ransom back the perfect life lost. Think about this, would you give up your son for that lives of others? That is what God did.

So any deaths or any pain or suffering, is totally from Satan's and mans hands . No one elses. Satan took on the rulership of mankind when Adam followed him , instead of God.

 

 

The bible was written about the people of those times but is for the people that came after the bible was written.

 

Everything we need to know about God is in the bible.

After Jesus, Christians were not to learn war anymore. We have the example in Jesus. That means that Chrsitians that get involved in governments and wars etc, are not following God.. They are what the bible calls false worshipers. Satan is the ruler of the world, and as such includes governments, and religions.( includeing Christendom.)

 

So what we are looking at, in this world is casued by Satan and man, not God. He never want this for us.

 

So what the means is, if some are not for God they are agianst him. And all the mess we see is thier own fault.

 

You say that God did not want slaves of A & E and wanted them to use their free will.

 

You are aware are you not of God's sissy fit the first time A & E did do their will and not God's.

 

Damed right he wants slaves.

 

As to your Jesus scapegoat.

 

It is not moral to profit from the murder of an innocent man.

 

Keep thinking you should and you are going to end in hell.

 

Regards

DL

[Realitycheck]

You make all of these ridiculous claims asserting that the Jewish God was so bad, when you have raised zero evidence whatsoever to confirm the existence of God. To depict that God was evil, etc., you have to prove that God exists in the first place and was omnipotent to make all of this stuff happen. Otherwise, all of your ridiculous cries and accusations are just hot air. You sound just as far out as all those superstitious worrywarts of old, only crying out, "Something happened! It was God! He's so bad! What can I do?" If it really was God and he was so bad, then I wouldn't be so judgmental, but something tells me that your whole spiel is really part of some ridiculous, nonsensical farce. Obviously, with a screen name such as yours, you have got some ego issues that are unsettled. Maybe it was just a joke that you let get out of control. Trying to twist and distort the invention of a large number of people from thousands of years ago hardly gives you a lot of credibility, especially considering their education level. I can't say that I've ever seen anyone use the Bible as a source to cite, criticizing it at the same time, but whatever floats your boat.

[deluxe]

But loyalty is not something you're born with, or that gets bestowed upon you at a certain point. You need to prove your loyalty every day of your life. That part never sat well with me. Adam chose to sin, so God punishes everyone. Maybe it's just an ingrained aversion to prejudice, but that seems so monumentally cruel for a loving god. "You're automatically a sinner the day you're born, I'm not even going to give you a chance to prove your loyalty."

 

And I'm sorry, but it seems like Christianity gets to have it both ways when it comes to omnipotence and perfection. God can do anything, even thwart His own physical laws, creating any kind of paradox He wants. And He's perfect even though He created imperfection.

God had dealings with Adam for a long time. God even created Eve for Adam. They were not deprived of anything. There was no reason to be disloyal, to God. They didn't know anything about Satan. Yet he sided with him.

 

Today if your father chooses to gamble and loses all his money , the whole family suffers. Adam was created prefect, Adam lost his perfection, he did that to himself. And perfection can not come from imperfection. So we are imperfect. But God set it up that we could gain that back.

[mooeypoo]

You say that God did not want slaves of A & E and wanted them to use their free will.

 

You are aware are you not of God's sissy fit the first time A & E did do their will and not God's.

 

Damed right he wants slaves.

 

As to your Jesus scapegoat.

 

It is not moral to profit from the murder of an innocent man.

 

Keep thinking you should and you are going to end in hell.

 

Regards

DL

 

!

Moderator Note

Greatest I am, people will find it a lot easier to discuss issues with you if you stop preaching and start debating. This isn't your personal blog, it's a discussion forum, and regardless of whether or not people agree with the content of what you say, you should follow our rules and conduct in a civil argument. Preaching and 'soap boxing' is against the rules.

 

Do not make things worse by arguing with a moderation note. Take it to heart and follow the rules.

[deluxe]

!

Moderator Note

Greatest I am, people will find it a lot easier to discuss issues with you if you stop preaching and start debating. This isn't your personal blog, it's a discussion forum, and regardless of whether or not people agree with the content of what you say, you should follow our rules and conduct in a civil argument. Preaching and 'soap boxing' is against the rules.

 

Do not make things worse by arguing with a moderation note. Take it to heart and follow the rules.

 

 

I know you don't want me to get into this. So I won't

But just wanted to say there is no place as 'Hell'.

I will leave it at that.

[Greatest I am]

!

Moderator Note

Greatest I am, people will find it a lot easier to discuss issues with you if you stop preaching and start debating. This isn't your personal blog, it's a discussion forum, and regardless of whether or not people agree with the content of what you say, you should follow our rules and conduct in a civil argument. Preaching and 'soap boxing' is against the rules.

 

Do not make things worse by arguing with a moderation note. Take it to heart and follow the rules.

 

My reply was directly against his preaching for the notion of us to try to profit from the murder of an innocent man.

 

Quite an immoral stance.

 

You might check what prompts a reply, not just the reply.

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

[deluxe]

My reply was directly against his preaching for the notion of us to try to profit from the murder of an innocent man.

 

Quite an immoral stance.

 

You might check what prompts a reply, not just the reply.

 

Regards

 

DL

 

 

OK

 

I understand the point of view that some come from. They don't understand why would anyone serve a God that lets these things happen in the world today. There are answers, but most people put up a big wall so that they don't get the answers. And if they do , many will not accept it anyway.

I don't look at it as confrontational, more as frustrations, and they are kind of mad about it.

I just answer the questions or statements, with what I know to be true. They can accept what I say or not. That is the choice all of us have.

Edited October 11, 2011 by deluxe

[mooeypoo]

My reply was directly against his preaching for the notion of us to try to profit from the murder of an innocent man.

 

Quite an immoral stance.

 

You might check what prompts a reply, not just the reply.

 

Regards

 

DL

If this was against a single reply of yours, we'd be happy and dandy. It isn't, and you know it. We have rules here and in the Religion forum the rules are even higher standard for reasons that SHOULD be obvious. We tell religious folk not to preach and patronize, and we do the same to the nonreligious folk. If you think that you're exempt from the rules just because you have the supposedly-scientific-side you are mistaken.

 

The note was not about the content of what you said, it was about the way you chose to say it, which is against etiquette rules and against our forum rules. Period.

 

The point of staff notes is to give the poster a nudge in the right direction, not to start an argument about the rules. You agreed to follow the rules the moment you signed up to this forum, and this isn't a discussion about whether or not you should be following them. Your attitude must change or you will not stay here, regardless of the content of your posts.

 

This, I hope, makes things clear enough for everyone to be able to *NOT* respond (and force staff to take action) and move on with the proper subject. If you truly wish to, feel free to send one of the staff members a personal message or use the "REPORT" button and report whatever offense you think was done to you.

 

Please go back on topic.

[Phi for All]

God had dealings with Adam for a long time.

How long?

 

God even created Eve for Adam. They were not deprived of anything.

Except the knowledge of good and evil. Which made the subtle serpent's job much easier.

 

There was no reason to be disloyal, to God. They didn't know anything about Satan. Yet he sided with him.

In context, it could be argued that it wasn't "siding" (choosing to be on Satan's side) with the serpent to listen and act on what he was saying (as you said, they didn't even know he was Satan, or what Satan was). In fact, it's quite obvious that Eve didn't just suddenly decide to believe the serpent and defy God. Genesis 3:6 tells us the serpent found out what God had told Adam (who must have filled Eve in on the particulars) and said, "No, you won't die today if you touch it, it'll teach you about good and evil". Further, Genesis 3:6 tells us Eve probably had never seen the tree before at all. She looks at it and sees that it's got fruit to eat, and that it's really, really beautiful, and looks like the kind of tree that would make a person wise like the serpent said.

 

Now Genesis doesn't tell us this part, but one can imagine that Eve, while really tempted, was still mindful of God saying that she would die if she even touched this tree, much less eat of it. So when she finally worked up the nerve to touch it (tree or fruit, whatever part she really touched first), it didn't kill her, which told her that the serpent was probably telling the truth, and that God was most certainly lying. If he was lying about touching the tree, it affected her free will by making it much easier to believe she wouldn't die from eating its fruit.

 

Today if your father chooses to gamble and loses all his money , the whole family suffers.

But we have the capability of regaining the money for ourselves, or at least won't be held responsible for our father's debts. And we can have children who won't be responsible for their grandfather's or their father's debts.

 

Adam was created prefect, Adam lost his perfection, he did that to himself. And perfection can not come from imperfection. So we are imperfect. But God set it up that we could gain that back.

Adam's free will was not so free, it was manipulated by a lie he couldn't have known was a lie. He wasn't created perfectly, he had an extra rib that he could live without. He was created naked, which we later found out was evil, something to be ashamed of. He didn't have the knowledge of good and evil that perfect God had (even the serpent knew more than Adam did and the serpent certainly wasn't perfect).

 

And if "perfection can not come from imperfection" how can "God set it up that we could gain that back"? This sounds like more omnipotence messing with our free will.

[deluxe]

How long?

 

 

Except the knowledge of good and evil. Which made the subtle serpent's job much easier.

 

 

In context, it could be argued that it wasn't "siding" (choosing to be on Satan's side) with the serpent to listen and act on what he was saying (as you said, they didn't even know he was Satan, or what Satan was). In fact, it's quite obvious that Eve didn't just suddenly decide to believe the serpent and defy God. Genesis 3:6 tells us the serpent found out what God had told Adam (who must have filled Eve in on the particulars) and said, "No, you won't die today if you touch it, it'll teach you about good and evil". Further, Genesis 3:6 tells us Eve probably had never seen the tree before at all. She looks at it and sees that it's got fruit to eat, and that it's really, really beautiful, and looks like the kind of tree that would make a person wise like the serpent said.

 

Now Genesis doesn't tell us this part, but one can imagine that Eve, while really tempted, was still mindful of God saying that she would die if she even touched this tree, much less eat of it. So when she finally worked up the nerve to touch it (tree or fruit, whatever part she really touched first), it didn't kill her, which told her that the serpent was probably telling the truth, and that God was most certainly lying. If he was lying about touching the tree, it affected her free will by making it much easier to believe she wouldn't die from eating its fruit.

 

 

But we have the capability of regaining the money for ourselves, or at least won't be held responsible for our father's debts. And we can have children who won't be responsible for their grandfather's or their father's debts.

 

 

Adam's free will was not so free, it was manipulated by a lie he couldn't have known was a lie. He wasn't created perfectly, he had an extra rib that he could live without. He was created naked, which we later found out was evil, something to be ashamed of. He didn't have the knowledge of good and evil that perfect God had (even the serpent knew more than Adam did and the serpent certainly wasn't perfect).

 

And if "perfection can not come from imperfection" how can "God set it up that we could gain that back"? This sounds like more omnipotence messing with our free will.

we don't know exactly how long. But God animals to Adam to be named. When Eve was finally created, Adam said "at last". So from this Adam and God had dealing for quite awhile.

 

Actually she did.

 

Genesis 3:1-9

Amplified Bible (AMP)

 

 

Genesis 3

¹NOW THE serpent was more subtle and crafty than any living creature of the field which the Lord God had made. And he [satan] said to the woman, Can it really be that God has said, You shall not eat from every tree of the garden? ²And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat the fruit from the trees of the garden,

 

³Except the fruit from the tree which is in the middle of the garden. God has said, You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.

 

⁴But the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die,

 

⁵For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing the difference between good and evil and blessing and calamity.

 

⁶And when the woman saw that the tree was good (suitable, pleasant) for food and that it was delightful to look at, and a tree to be desired in order to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she gave some also to her husband, and he ate.

 

⁷Then the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves apronlike girdles.

 

⁸And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

 

⁹But the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, Where are you?

 

 

 

 

So this tells us that Eve listened to Satan and ate of the tree. Both Eve and Satan, knew that God did not want man to eat of that tree. So Satan told the first lie. That is why he is called the father of the lie.

 

Actually free will is free will. You can decide the run a red light if you want, but you will suffer the results.

 

 

 

[Phi for All]

Actually she did.

When she meets the serpent, she didn't know he was evil (and in fact, Genesis never says the serpent is Satan).

 

So this tells us that Eve listened to Satan and ate of the tree. Both Eve and Satan, knew that God did not want man to eat of that tree. So Satan told the first lie. That is why he is called the father of the lie.

The serpent didn't lie, he deceived. He said, "Ye shall not surely die, for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil." He hides the full consequences, he deceives, but, since Adam and Eve don't die, he didn't lie.

 

God lied first when he told Adam, "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die". When Eve touched it and didn't die, she might've thought eating it would be OK too. She probably didn't think God lied, since she didn't know about good and evil, but she took the next logical step and ate the fruit. THEN she knew that God lied, and told Adam about it.

 

Actually free will is free will. You can decide the run a red light if you want, but you will suffer the results.

Adam has no concept of good and evil. He's told the consequence of touching the tree is death. Eve touches it and doesn't die. She eats the fruit, doesn't die and tells him she now has an understanding of good and evil, and urges him to eat also. If anything, Adam has been lied to by God and by Eve, since after eating she surely knows about good and evil. And God, knowing that Adam and Eve had no concept of good and evil, failed to warn anybody about the subtle serpent. How can your decision be called free-willed when it's based on so many lies and so little information?

 

Your analogy would be more apt if I were told by the police that running a red light is punishable by death, but my wife says, "I ran a red light and didn't die because the guy on the radio said the government is covering up all the benefits of running red lights. Besides, the light is actually green now so go ahead."