Is this science?

[Liviu]

Hello,

 

My name is Liviu, almost 30 years old, and in the last 25 years I did some experiments and I lived some life experiences that will blow your mind. I experienced different family environments, social environments, working environments, geographical, educational environments and so on.

 

But my craziest chalenge was to generate all human patterns, which I did in the end helped by my telepathic ability. Among other things I also experienced three clinical deaths and two lightning strokes, I attached my personal journal for more information.

 

liviu_journal-files.pdf

 

So my question is this: Is it science what I did?

 

Thank you for your time,

Liviu

[Psycho]

Maybe 25 years ago you should have started by producing empirical reproducible data proving telepathy works.

 

Then...done something else for the next 23 years when the results showed a random distribution formed by chance.

[mississippichem]

He should have seen this argument coming

[John Cuthber]

"Is this science?"

No

[Liviu]

@psycho - you are correct, "maybe". the only problem is that I was a kid back then and I didn't even knew what this term means

@mississippichem - of course that I've seen it coming, I even wrote in my journal. but the real reaction is even funnier.. when people slaps me and asking "did you see that coming?"

 

@Mr. Cuthber - can I ask why?

[Appolinaria]

O__o

[Phi for All]

Liviu, I confess I have not yet read your 35 page journal.

 

Let me ask this first: Were any of the experiments you did repeatable by others? Could they set up the same test you did and achieve the same results? If not, then your conclusions may be false. Can you make a prediction (not in the psychic sense - just something along the line of, "If I do x, then y will happen")? If you can make a prediction, then you can set up an experiment to test it. If you do it many times with the same results, you can form a conclusion. If others can repeat your experiments and draw the same conclusions, then you have something the scientific community can measure.

 

The results don't even have to be successful. Science doesn't have to be right every time, but it always needs to be methodical.

[John Cuthber]

@psycho - you are correct, "maybe". the only problem is that I was a kid back then and I didn't even knew what this term means

@mississippichem - of course that I've seen it coming, I even wrote in my journal. but the real reaction is even funnier.. when people slaps me and asking "did you see that coming?"

 

@Mr. Cuthber - can I ask why?

Certainly.

I say it's not science because it contains this "which I did in the end helped by my telepathic ability".

Telepathy has been investigated many times and shown not to exist (or at least- not to show up in scientific experiments).

Something that relies on an unscientific basis is not science.

Accordingly the answer toy your questions "Is it science what I did?" or "Is this science?"

is no.

 

Incidentally, among the many scientific experiments that show telepathy doesn't exist is the one I set up earlier.

Since you needed to ask me why I though as I did, you are not telepathic.

I refer you to the third post in this thread.

Edited October 9, 2011 by John Cuthber

[Liviu]

@Phi - if you don't read it, the chance to understand is lower 1%, but if you read it the chance i surely greater than 50%

All the information I have are natural information and I am sure that no one ever had them or will have in the next 1000 years. Most of the experienced I lived were not planned, I just "let the wave carry me".

Of course I can predict something, I can predict almost anything - is not if I can, is if I want. And I doubt that someone can repeat this experiment, do you think that is someone who will want to be stroke by lightning?

 

@Mr. Cuthber - the experiments were not based on telepathy, I used telepathy only to check if I was right about my predictions.

 

I'm sorry that I cannot explain in phew words, that is why I wrote the journal, maybe I'll find someone who can make a summary. My summary will be like this:

 

"after an accidents I got a different kind of memory, I was able to record absolutely everything, every breath, every colour, every sound, every feeling. So when I remember something, I remember everything. In time I had this crazy ideea to use this ability to try to understand how other people are, how do they feel, how do they think, how they smell and I started to study every move and do exactly what they do. After I got the basic pattern, I just changed different details of them (hair, age, colour, deseas) until I generated a number so big of people that I lost count. The thing is that I cand feel what other feel just because I imagined me being them, and that is NOT a thing you can do in a lab."

 

So Phi, the chance of this experiment being repeated is null, because it was based on a chance of succes that I already knew I have. For example if I wanted to know how a man feel in an accident, I will say my prayer and just throw myself from a building, knowing that even that I will be injured, I will still be alive after that. Unfortunately, nobody can make this kind of experiments without loosing something, my lost is that I cannot use my memories, because if I mistakenly remeber an accident, the pain will be so real to both my mind and my body and could die just from a memory.

 

The reason I am asking if it is science it is because I want to sell my knowledge - but only to someone who can understand it first and who will used for the right purpose.

 

Sorry I wrote so much, people loose focus when they have to read too much, but I did this to add as much clarification as I can in order to get the right answer to my question.

Edited October 9, 2011 by Liviu

[Phi for All]

@Phi - if you don't read it, the chance to understand is lower 1%, but if you read it the chance i surely greater than 50%

All the information I have are natural information and I am sure that no one ever had them or will have in the next 1000 years. Most of the experienced I lived were not planned, I just "let the wave carry me".

Of course I can predict something, I can predict almost anything - is not if I can, is if I want. And I doubt that someone can repeat this experiment, do you think that is someone who will want to be stroke by lightning?

If an architect asks me to see the great new building plans he has for a 40-story office building, I might first ask what materials he plans on using. If he tells me he's using only wood, with no concrete or steel, I don't need to see his plans to know it won't work.

 

You asked if what you did in your pdf was science, so I asked some questions first. I'm not yet at the point where I need to understand your ideas. If you didn't follow the proper methodology, then your ideas won't be considered science. Does that make sense?

 

You say you can predict anything. If I sat you in a room and asked you to predict which card I was going to pull from the top of a standard deck of 52 playing cards, how would you score by the end of the deck? If I did this 100 times, would you still score as well?

 

Keep in mind that, for this experiment to be successful, you are not allowed to say, "I could have guessed correctly, I just didn't want to". Also keep in mind that, if you have to be struck by lightning to prove your point, the costs for the experiment will have to come out of your pocket.

[Psycho]

You say you can predict anything.

Surely you have missed the fundamental point that if he can predict anything, why would you need to ask anything, you would already know the answer, not to mention being the greatest gambler in history.

 

That is dismising the point that if you can't use your memory how could would you know something has happen, if you can't remember something for all intents and purposes it might as well not happen assuming the consequences of the actions aren't obvious.

[Phi for All]

Surely you have missed the fundamental point that if he can predict anything, why would you need to ask anything, you would already know the answer, not to mention being the greatest gambler in history.

Well, maybe he just doesn't want to.

[Liviu]

Hm.. I'm starting to understand. So science is if other people can replicate my experiments with the same result using this metodology? Well, since nobody can reproduce this experiments its obvius that is not science. Is this correct, what I said now?

 

@Phi - the only thing I know best, except computers (I'm an IT engineer), is how other people think and feel, it doesn matter who they are, wehere they are. I wanted to know if this can be considered science and from what I understand it is not considered science because other people cannot replicate this.

 

@Psycho - I'm sardonic by nature therefore i love irony. About gambling, I specified to people that knows me that I no longer provide winning tips for gambling and loto, search for missing children or search for military secrets.

[Phi for All]

Hm.. I'm starting to understand. So science is if other people can replicate my experiments with the same result using this metodology? Well, since nobody can reproduce this experiments its obvius that is not science. Is this correct, what I said now?

Correct. There has never been a successfully reproduced experiment involving telepathy. Even if someone answered 100% correctly, if it can't be reproduced then it must be a random occurrence of a low probability.

 

@Phi - the only thing I know best, except computers (I'm an IT engineer), is how other people think and feel, it doesn matter who they are, wehere they are. I wanted to know if this can be considered science and from what I understand it is not considered science because other people cannot replicate this.

Feelings are too indeterminate to use for an experiment in telepathy. I don't think many scientists would accept such a subjectively vague criteria.

 

What people are thinking is a different matter. If I picked a sentence from a book I was reading and thought about it very hard, could you tell me what the sentence is, or at least get close to what it's about? If you could do that twenty times in a row, I could almost guarantee some notice from the scientific community.

 

About gambling, I specified to people that knows me that I no longer provide winning tips for gambling and loto, search for missing children or search for military secrets.

How many times have you personally won the lottery?

[imatfaal]

OK here is a test you can do that would astound critics and get people to take you very seriously indeed. For the next few Saturdays - between 1930 and 1945 London time pick 6 numbers between 1 and 49 and post them here with a time stamp well prior to 2000hours. No one will be able to use your gift for financial gain as the uk national lottery draw closes at 1930hours - but, in the absence of better controls, it will provide a very useful gauge of how much credence should be given to your claims.

[mississippichem]

I purpose an experiment:

 

Phi for All: send me a private message containing only one simple sentence.

 

Liviu: use your alleged abilities to read this message telepathically.

 

Then Phi for All can post the private message here on the public forum. There will be a timestamp to ensure no trickery on our part.

[Ophiolite]

OK here is a test you can do that would astound critics and get people to take you very seriously indeed. For the next few Saturdays - between 1930 and 1945 London time pick 6 numbers between 1 and 49 and post them here with a time stamp well prior to 2000hours. No one will be able to use your gift for financial gain as the uk national lottery draw closes at 1930hours - but, in the absence of better controls, it will provide a very useful gauge of how much credence should be given to your claims.

That wouldn't be telepathy, that would be clairvoyance. I don't think he's claiming to be clairvoyant, is he? . Also, to the other proposed tests, it does rather strike me akin to the following:

 

Mr. A - I can read you no.

Mr. B - Read! Don't be silly. You can't read.

Mr. A - No, really, I can.

Mr. B - OK then. See that big building over there. Tell me what it says on page 42 of the third book on the fourth shelf of the third rack to the left on the second floor. Aha1 I thought as much. You can't read.

[imatfaal]

That wouldn't be telepathy, that would be clairvoyance. I don't think he's claiming to be clairvoyant, is he? . Also, to the other proposed tests, it does rather strike me akin to the following:

 

Mr. A - I can read you no.

Mr. B - Read! Don't be silly. You can't read.

Mr. A - No, really, I can.

Mr. B - OK then. See that big building over there. Tell me what it says on page 42 of the third book on the fourth shelf of the third rack to the left on the second floor. Aha1 I thought as much. You can't read.

 

Surely, if we are being picky (and I do enjoy being picky) it would not be clairvoyance but precognition.

 

Clairvoyance

Precognition

[Phi for All]

@Phi - the only thing I know best, except computers (I'm an IT engineer), is how other people think and feel, it doesn matter who they are, wehere they are.

Is "how" a person thinks different from "what" a person is thinking? I define "what a person is thinking" using the experiment mississippichem suggested. One simple sentence in English that I can send to mississippichem for verification. You use your telepathy to say exactly what the sentence is, then I reveal my sentence and mississippichem corroborates.

 

If you could do that a few times in a row, we could move on to another experiment that didn't involve the computers you know best. So people couldn't say you hacked our PM system.

[Ophiolite]

Surely, if we are being picky (and I do enjoy being picky) it would not be clairvoyance but precognition.

I have examined this situation in detail and am forced to conclude (reluctantly) that you are 100% correct, with not even a glimmering of a chance of error. This has meade me feel quite ill so I am going home.

[imatfaal]

I have examined this situation in detail and am forced to conclude (reluctantly) that you are 100% correct, with not even a glimmering of a chance of error. This has meade me feel quite ill so I am going home.

Does that mean I have to work late to maintain the cosmic balance?

 

Damn!

[Liviu]

Let me give you some examples, since I see you are not nihilists, there is a enormous chance to understand. Here are some random memories of my experiences:

1. Finding a place where a car accident will occur: I walk on a street, on the sidewalk. I see some footsetps on the sidewalk and I follow them. I stop and I look for other clue. I admire a building's architecture. I see a hair style of a lady just like the building's arhitecture. I follow the lady. While walink in her hair I observe the clip looks like a straw of grass. I find a crack in a wall and a straw of grass in there. I sit down and wait, sometimes a little while, sometimes long hours. Then.. BANG!, one car or two cars have an accident.
2. Having other people's emotions: I'm on a vacation. I just got from the pool, I had a lot of fun. I get in bed to take a nap. Than suddenly I start to cry. I start wolking around in my room, than I go on the stairs, two floors up and knock on a door. A lady crying answers. Her boyfriend dumped her. I cheer her and I don't cry no more.
3. "Sleep calls": I sleep. I see something, hear or feel. I get up and I note that (otherwise I will not sleep again). Example: I get a "call": "Agatha will have a boy" so I write this. I ask myself: "Who the heck is Agatha? I do ot know any Agatha". Next day or after some days or weeks I will see in a newspaper, on tv or from people "Agatha gave birth to a healthy boy".
4. In trance (thinking or telepathy). This part scare the hell out of me. I preffer to be drunk for the rest of my life than having this experiences, unfortunatelly face to face conversations with people, drugs or drinking makes them even powerful. Here is how it happens: Usually I'm not thinking at anything because thinking makes me trembling of fear, then I have an ideea and if I loose control for a second it starts to expand and I build atom by atom, pixel by pixel an entire universe - a man that works on something, he's sculpting something in his mind, than he adds some wheels, some plastic, etc, ect, lots of details. Many years later I find that that this thing is called Walkman or Ipad. While I think I don't eat, I don't drink, I don't sleep but I cand do anything else, like driving a car, or giving an exam, is like I am on auto-pilot. So call it how you want.. I call it telepathy. At first I thought that they are my ideas and somebody else steals them, but it's clear that they are not mine. Now you understand why I do not want to know things? Because those feelings and thoughts are not mine and it will give me a great instatisfaction wanting them like there were mine.
5. Get to know people: I meet a new people. I ask him/her a lot of questions even that makes no sense for them. I make a profile. I put myself in his place, I eat like him, I eat what he eats, sleep like him, walk like, I do what it does until I became exactly like him. I test them how they face change. I make the final pattern of them. Let say his name is Mike. Mike is a regular guy but he is slow moving guy. The blizzard is coming, we have to run to a warm place, but the pattern say that Mike is a slow runner so he will never run, not even to save his own life. So I will have to look for another way to get away from the blizzard. I make a camp fire and everything is ok. Asking Mike to run would have cause so much unballance that will surely got us both killed. So I never work against nature and the will of a man.. because it always brings bad things.
6. Manipulating people for their own good: I "see" something bad coming. I cannot go to them and say "you will have an accident, change your route" because, without proof, I will be called crazy or even hold responsible after the accident occurs. So I decide to "save" someone: "haha you are fat" I yell to someone, the person turn arround and starts chasing me, a piece of wall fall down right where the person willl have walked if he would not start chasing me, but he is to busy chasing me to realize that I just saved his life. For me this a succes mission, I do not care what people are thinking about my methods as long as I know I just saved someone's life. Now what do you expect to save you life and make you feel good in the same time? Real life is not hollywood..

So you see? Is not always the same way I get to know what I want. Cand I find the lottery numbers? - Yes. But not in the same way everytime: today I might find them in my omelet, othertime in a pyramid, othertime in different places, in different ways. Can I use them to win? NO, because I don't want. Actually, I don't even want to know them. I don't want to know lottery numbers, I don't want to know where a missing child is, because I have to feel his pain and it is a heartbreaking pain, and I don't want to know millitary secrets, most of them disgust me.

 

@iamatfall - I actually wrote those numbers 3 days ago. I don't know what they were fore. I just waked up in the middle of the night and wrote them, but I don't know what they are for. If I found I will surely tell you. Is like that joke: "I found a cure.. now all that is left is to find the disease"

 

Any new questions now?

[Phi for All]

All the incidents you mention have natural explanations. Good scientific experiments can remove the probability of those explanations being plausible, leaving us with only the supernatural explanation, that you are a telepath. You need to figure out how you can test your ability to make sure it's not just probability (waiting long enough hours until "something" dramatic happens at a certain locale), or subconscious triggering (hearing someone sobbing while you're asleep, then waking up and feeling sad), or simple statistics (the odds of finding someone in a metropolitan newspaper named Agatha who gives birth to a boy are not as large as you might think; alternatively, you might have subliminally seen an announcement of Agatha's baby shower weeks earlier).

[Liviu]

I am thinkin on the following scenario: to train a robot to think like me and predict these things. Because it is impossible for another human to gain all the information I have, a robot is the only logical alternative for me.

 

In the following months I will send a message to some companies and universities in the robotic industry and ask them if they can provide me the necessary equipment for this experiment, because I have experience both with machines, since I am already an engineer, and humans, since I've studied them all my life.

 

Successfully training a robot to do this things, will that count as science? Is this a good ideea?

[Phi for All]

Successfully training a robot to do this things, will that count as science? Is this a good ideea?

If you can train the robot to warn people of a specific impending danger, I think you'll get lots of scientific recognition. If the robot just points out random occurrences or produces slips of paper it may or may not have written down a few days ago or runs around calling people fat, then I think you will have wasted a lot of time and money.

 

People will find it very suspicious that you don't want to win the lottery (presumably because of some ethical dilemma or vague fear of corruption). Having wealth like that would let you fund all kinds of research into the paranormal. And the stuff about getting to know people and being able to figure out what will motivate them, that's called marketing. It's very common and not supernatural at all.

 

Is the robot idea a good one? I think the robotics sector will want either money or proof of your capabilities before they invest any time talking to you. If you can come up with something more concrete, I have some connections. If you could program a robot that would run around the house saving people from slipping in the bathtub, leaving the gas on and falling downstairs (or even warn them when family will drop by unexpectedly), I would be happy to introduce you to the Vice President of Marketing, Home Robot Division at iRobot.

 

I can see it now. We'll call it the Doomba.