Is it OK to have sex with kids?

[Banjofrog]

And if not why not?

 

Most people agree that actions which harm others are wrong, but many actions are illegal which do not harm anyone and are known as victimless crimes. How can society justify criminalizing having sex with kids if it doesn't hurt anyone?

 

Many assume that a child will be 'traumatized' by having sex with an adult, however this is not true. Firstly ages of consent vary across the world (from 13 in Spain to 18 in California) - proof that there is no consensus on what the minimally acceptable age at which a person can engage in sex is. Secondly much of the 'trauma' (guilt, shame, victimization) felt by 'victims' is in fact caused by society, such as in the case of Africa's 'Witch Children', many of whom genuinely believe they are 'witches' - not because they are but because they have been told they are.

 

Suppose a child has consensual safe-sex with an adult in a society where this is permitted (and therefore not immoral/taboo etc). In what way would the child be harmed?

[Mystery111]

How about psychological abuse? Many would appreciate that being led into sexual acts from a very young age is... psychologically wrong. Sex should be reserved for adults who know what they are doing, fully conscious of their own actions and are mentally adult enough to appreciate what sex is.

[Phi for All]

Most people agree that actions which harm others are wrong, but many actions are illegal which do not harm anyone and are known as victimless crimes. How can society justify criminalizing having sex with kids if it doesn't hurt anyone?

The odds favor victimhood in most present day cultures. Children generally don't have the sophistication to determine the level of deceit being used upon them to get them to do things they might not want to do. And yes, the majority of children under their society's age of consent need to be talked into having sex, even if it's just to comply with their parents admonitions.

 

Many assume that a child will be 'traumatized' by having sex with an adult, however this is not true.

The assumption may not be true, but neither is an assumption that they won't be traumatized.

 

Firstly ages of consent vary across the world (from 13 in Spain to 18 in California) - proof that there is no consensus on what the minimally acceptable age at which a person can engage in sex is.

But within those cultures the laws set conditions by which adults may interact sexually with those even at the age of consent. If you deceive a 13-year-old Spaniard into having sex with you as an adult, the parents can have you charged with non-consensual sexual abuse. Further, just because different cultures have different ages of consent it's no basis for an argument that the younger ages should be universal, or that a higher age should be lowered.

 

Secondly much of the 'trauma' (guilt, shame, victimization) felt by 'victims' is in fact caused by society, such as in the case of Africa's 'Witch Children', many of whom genuinely believe they are 'witches' - not because they are but because they have been told they are.

Taking away the laws doesn't necessarily take away any traumatization. You still have to deal with the fact that a child who doesn't want to have sex with an adult must be either coerced or tricked into it. Adults have undo influence over children, which makes any type of reasoning with them about consensual sex a bit suspect.

 

Suppose a child has consensual safe-sex with an adult in a society where this is permitted (and therefore not immoral/taboo etc). In what way would the child be harmed?

You're describing an ideal event as an argument for a generalized shift in the way society treats an historically problematic situation.

 

Also, if you're thinking this would be some kind of best scenario learning experience for the child, so they wouldn't have to learn about sex from an equally inexperienced peer, the fact that you've had a lot of sex doesn't necessarily make you good at it, or make you a good teacher for young children.

[ewmon]

1. Societies consider *children* unable to form reasonable and prudent decisions regarding their lifestyles until a certain age, commonly referred to as "age of majority" and "adulthood", after which, society permits such individuals to make decisions about, and engage in, activities such as: sex, marriage, drinking (See Note below), voting, enlisting in the armed forces (See Note below), entering into contracts (eg: marriage, credit cards, mortgages, etc), driving motor vehicles, drinking alcoholic beverages, etc.
    
   
2. You promote isolating sex from other *adult* activities when you have not shown that children can make reasonable and prudent decisions regarding it, would benefit from it, are currently deprived of some natural right, etc.
    
   
3. You completely ignore the fact that, if children have the right to make such decisions about their sexual activities, their parents/guardians cannot prevent them from doing so, thus allowing the possibility of girls becoming pregnant and boys fathering children when neither have the ability to care for such babies (financially, physically, emotionally, intellectually, etc), causing the parents of these child-parents to shoulder these burdens, unless you want the government to do so. Either way, you won't find much popular support for pedophilia on these grounds alone.
    
   
4. The fact that ages of consent *do* exist in all societies shows that sexual activity *does* involve a certain degree of maturity.
    
   
5. You have not suggested an alleged *natural* age of consent, and perhaps for you, none exists.
   

Note: Here's a related example that went wrong. During the Vietnam War, some people argued that young adults (age 18 to 20) were "required" to suffer the rigors of the war, but they couldn't drink alcoholic beverages. So, the MLDA (Minimum Legal Drinking Age) was generally lowered to 18 across America. Several years and hundreds, if not thousands, of alcohol-related young adult deaths later, people realized that the negatives outweighed the positives (if any existed), and in 1984, Congress enacted the National Minimum Drinking Age Act, setting the MLDA back to 21.

Edited October 13, 2011 by ewmon

[Aristarchus in Exile]

What age do you consider 'kids'? What age does the criminal system consider 'kids'? How old is the 'adult'? At what age does a 'kid' become an 'adult'? Is the 'adult' in a position of authority over the 'kid'? Has the 'adult' affected the 'kid' with drugs or alcohol in order to subdue common sense or sense of right and wrong? Has the 'kid' enticed the 'adult' in order for monetary favours (If the kids is a kid the ault should know better in that case.) In general, an 'adult' having sex with a 'kid' is disgusting, and the adult should be put in prison.

[Appolinaria]

Children can definitely be hurt. Especially if their bodies aren't developed to have sex yet.

 

Also, if their brains aren't fully developed, they can't make a proper decision for themselves.... if they contract a disease they will have to pay for it later, as an adult, because no one interfered and protected the child's well being. Children shouldn't be able to make life changing decisions at such a young age because their brains aren't developed. Morally, it is wrong. It's like signing a contract while blind.

[Moontanman]

Note: Here's a related example that went wrong. During the Vietnam War, some people argued that young adults (age 18 to 20) were "required" to suffer the rigors of the war, but they couldn't drink alcoholic beverages. So, the MLDA (Minimum Legal Drinking Age) was generally lowered to 18 across America. Several years and hundreds, if not thousands, of alcohol-related young adult deaths later, people realized that the negatives outweighed the positives (if any existed), and in 1984, Congress enacted the National Minimum Drinking Age Act, setting the MLDA back to 21.

 

 

Ummm, no, the legal drinking age was not set back to 21, it had never been 21, in fact in the early part of the last century and the last of the 1800's puberty was pretty much the drinking age if there was any limits at all. In some countries it is 15 or 16 now but 21 was not the "original" drinking age by any means...

[Phi for All]

Ummm, no, the legal drinking age was not set back to 21, it had never been 21, in fact in the early part of the last century and the last of the 1800's puberty was pretty much the drinking age if there was any limits at all. In some countries it is 15 or 16 now but 21 was not the "original" drinking age by any means...

And the National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984 doesn't actually set the age, it merely withholds some funding from states that sell liquor to those under 21.

 

To bring this idea more on-topic, only 15 states and DC ban underage drinking in the home. 17 states don't ban it at all if the minor is in a private setting. The remaining 18 states have some provision to allow it with family members in private. If the laws against sex with minors were treated similarly, the probability of abuse increases dramatically.

[Moontanman]

And the National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984 doesn't actually set the age, it merely withholds some funding from states that sell liquor to those under 21.

 

To bring this idea more on-topic, only 15 states and DC ban underage drinking in the home. 17 states don't ban it at all if the minor is in a private setting. The remaining 18 states have some provision to allow it with family members in private. If the laws against sex with minors were treated similarly, the probability of abuse increases dramatically.

 

 

You are correct, if indeed the law for sex with a child was limited that way it would indeed set up the possibility of abuse, and to continue in the vein of devils advocate, why is sex so treated? As long as it's not sexual i can pretty much teach my kids anything, I could make them worship Cthulhu, make them pray to him 5 times a day and teach them that anyone or anything that does not get on their knees five times a day and pound their foreheads on the ground in Cthulhu's name are doomed to burn in everlasting hell fire, I can teach them to hate and carry signs that claim everyone else is going to hell and make them march for Cthulhu's and all sort of other odd and mentally mentally damaging things but sex is somehow wrong? I do not support sex with children but to say it's because it might damage them is just ignoring the reality of the situation.

 

As for sex, i can teach them sexually damaging things, like sex is bad, having sex is so wrong that only horrible criminals have sex, i can (in some countries) take away their ability to enjoy sex both physically and mentally, I can teach them all kinds of damaging things about sex or anything else, and if i call it religion I can have sex with underage girls and take several of them as wives, the idea that sex for children is limited because it might do them harm is not part of reality, something else is going on here.... i think it has a name....

Edited October 13, 2011 by Moontanman

[ewmon]

Thank you for correcting me about the Minimum Legal Drinking Age, and I apologize for misusing that terminology. I was trying to find the words for what is the minimum alcohol purchase age (ie, legally purchase without parental consent — as other adults can do). I looked, and if it is trustworthy, Wikipedia shows the vast majority of states having a minimum purchase age of 21 after Prohibition (post 1933), lowering the age to 18 or 19 in the 1970s (about 40 years or 1½ generations later), and then raising it back up to 21 in the 1980s.

 

Not to get sidetracked, the essence of my example was that a lot of people thought it a good idea to allow younger adults a right reserved for adults slightly older and above, but it turned out to be a social experiment gone wrong, and it took about 10 years and many drunken car crashes and deaths to realize the mistake.

[Moontanman]

Thank you for correcting me about the Minimum Legal Drinking Age, and I apologize for misusing that terminology. I was trying to find the words for what is the minimum alcohol purchase age (ie, legally purchase without parental consent — as other adults can do). I looked, and if it is trustworthy, Wikipedia shows the vast majority of states having a minimum purchase age of 21 after Prohibition (post 1933), lowering the age to 18 or 19 in the 1970s (about 40 years or 1½ generations later), and then raising it back up to 21 in the 1980s.

 

Not to get sidetracked, the essence of my example was that a lot of people thought it a good idea to allow younger adults a right reserved for adults slightly older and above, but it turned out to be a social experiment gone wrong, and it took about 10 years and many drunken car crashes and deaths to realize the mistake.

 

 

If I read the chart correctly you were correct, i was wrong, i was evidently thinking of the age limit before prohibition, I misheard the the TV show last week (NOVA), my apologies, 15 was mentioned in the show but it was referring to alcohol consumption per person from age 15 and up, it was what i thought a huge amount but modern alcohol consumption per capita is several times higher now to my surprise. i was unaware of the drinking age before i was a teenager but I knew that I could buy alcohol when I was a teenager. Of course growing up in West Virginia everyone seemed to have moonshine but that was somewhat less than legal even then for anyone, but that mason jar of clear liquid was on everyone's cupboard shelf and when i was 14 i had no problem buying beer....

Edited October 14, 2011 by Moontanman

[ewmon]

If I read the chart correctly you were correct, i was wrong,

Dear Alphonse,

 

Oh, no, no, my friend. I was wrong to use MLDA, and you were correct.

 

Most sincerely,

 

Gaston

[Banjofrog]

How about psychological abuse?

 

What evidence have you that sex with children results in psychological harm?

 

If you deceive a 13-year-old Spaniard into having sex

 

I made it quite clear I was talking about consensual sex.

 

Further, just because different cultures have different ages of consent it's no basis for an argument that the younger ages should be universal, or that a higher age should be lowered.

 

Do laws not need to be justified? Is it acceptable for actions to be criminalized for no reason? Perhaps we should criminalize being gay or black people going to the same schools as whites.

 

Adults have undo influence over children

 

Of course, we decide many things for them. What they eat, what religion they have, when they go to bed - why not decide how they learn about sex?

 

ages of consent *do* exist in all societies

 

Not true.

 

You have not suggested an alleged *natural* age of consent, and perhaps for you, none exists.

 

Sex should only be criminalized if it results in harm.

 

Not to get sidetracked, the essence of my example was that a lot of people thought it a good idea to allow younger adults a right reserved for adults slightly older and above, but it turned out to be a social experiment gone wrong, and it took about 10 years and many drunken car crashes and deaths to realize the mistake.

 

Do you realize that in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Spain the drinking age is 16? Of course these nations have far fewer alcohol related problems than the USA. When people are made responsible for there actions they behave responsibly, when (as in the USA) you treat people like babies until they are 21 they behave like babies. Kids will drink alcohol whether you want them to or not - the only choice society has is if they drink in a bar or on the streets (where they are more likely to commit or be victims of crime).

 

America is certainly not a good example - your teenagers impregnate each other (because they are under 18 and legally considered asexual babies who mustn't be educated about sex), your war on drugs is counter productive, and you are generally obnoxious.

[mississippichem]

People who desire to have sex with children shouldn't be allowed to breed. And if you think sex with a child can in any way be consensual, you are either A) a child or B) a pedophile.

 

Banjofrog: Though we Ameticans are not nearly as annoying as pedophiles who compare themselves to homosexuals or racial minorities in order to get sympathy for their truly disgusting habit of diddling kids.

[Phi for All]

I made it quite clear I was talking about consensual sex.

And I made it quite clear that deceiving a 13-year-old into having sex with you, while making it seem consensual, is prosecutable in Spain, the country you mentioned as having the lowest age of consent.

 

 

Do laws not need to be justified? Is it acceptable for actions to be criminalized for no reason? Perhaps we should criminalize being gay or black people going to the same schools as whites.

They certainly don't need to be justified cross-culturally. And there are plenty of reasons why laws against sex with children are justified. Abuse. Incest. And while no clinical numbers are available for psychological trauma, we do know that some children are traumatized by sex with adults. It frightens and disturbs them and creates unnatural expectations in some children. That's enough to warrant concern.

 

And please don't trot out any more horse-shit straw men arguments equating pedophilia to homosexuality. That may play well in other forums but people hear know a logical fallacy when they see one.

 

 

Of course, we decide many things for them. What they eat, what religion they have, when they go to bed - why not decide how they learn about sex?

Your arguments all center on the consensual agreement, so let's just focus on that. True consent requires an informed decision. Children can't possibly comprehend all the nuances of sexuality, what it means in their society to be sexually active and sexually responsible. Further, consent requires the full ability to decline, and children are not equal in power to an adult, no matter what culture you refer to. There can be no true consensual sex between an adult and a child.

[Moontanman]

Ok, this sex with kids thing is proving to be quite a bit less than scientific. the first question to ask is why do we think that sexual contact between a child and and adult is wrong?

 

I can say that i know several people who were sexualized as children and liked it, in fact as long as it isn't violent rape many people who had sexual contact with an adult while a child, often a quite young child, remember it fondly. Our society says that this just brain washing of a type and that the child cannot possibly have really enjoyed it a child enjoying sex is not PC. But is this assumption justifiable?

 

i was sexualized as a child and I enjoyed it and I have talked to more than a dozen people who enjoyed it too but the the people who counciled them when it was found out did everything but move heaven and earth to convince them they couldn't have enjoyed and it and that they were molested, in the people i am talking about they say the brow beating they took as they were demanded to admit they were raped instead of enjoying consensual sex was much more damaging than the actual sex. many reported being belittled and made to feel like they were horrible people because they enjoyed it.

 

Then there was the actions of the people they knew, telling them they were victims and that they had to admit to being victims so justice could be done and that they would never know peace unless they admitted they were hurt by the sexual contact, often the councillor was so harsh the child broke down, terrified because they had to report their dad or uncle before the harassment by the councilor would stop.

 

Now i know these are just anecdotal experiences but to say a child cannot have sexual feelings and enjoy them is simply not true.

 

Historically sex with a child was often a part of the culture, in Western culture just a couple hundred years ago sex with prepubescent children was allowed by marriage if for no other reason, some say a certain cultural minority of eastern Europe condones prepubescent child marriage and children are expected to have sexual feelings and act on them even today. through out history sex with children has been an expected part of those societies and often it was glorified in songs and poems. Child prostitution was common, especially if the child's mother was a prostitute as well.

 

So where does this idea that sex with a child is horrific, and inexcusable come from? Why is sex so special, i can harm my children psychologically in many ways that will disrupt their ability as an adult due to mental damage inflicted in the name of religion or some other teaching the adult believes in, the child has no choice in these things, parents can do some quite horrible things to their children as i stated in my last post but as long as it's not sex it's golden, why is sex restricted?

 

Where does this prohibition come from? The bible? no not hardly child molestation was not only condoned it was encouraged by god himself...

 

In most cases when sex with a little girl was condoned women in that society were often considered to be chattel, slaves and that slavery was often sexual as well as physical. So before we go off on an emotional rant of "it just is wrong because i feel like it's wrong" can we identify why think sexual contact of a non violent nature between adults and children has to be wrong and damaging to the child?

 

Even sex play between children is condemned today even though it is demonstrable that this sex play is quite natural for children.

 

Please don't flame me because you think i condone sex with children, i do not... try to put aside your emotions and look at it with the eyes of a neutral observer. I can think of some pretty good reasons to restrict adult child sexual contact but so far not much in the way of real arguments have been given, lets hear some of those obvious arguments why sexual contact with an adult by a child is wrong.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Moontanman

[Phi for All]

Ok, this sex with kids thing is proving to be quite a bit less than scientific. the first question to ask is why do we think that sexual contact between a child and and adult is wrong?

Because it can never be truly consensual, for the reasons previously stated.

 

I can say that i know several people who were sexualized as children and liked it, in fact as long as it isn't violent rape many people who had sexual contact with an adult while a child, often a quite young child, remember it fondly. Our society says that this just brain washing of a type and that the child cannot possibly have really enjoyed it a child enjoying sex is not PC. But is this assumption justifiable?

 

i was sexualized as a child and I enjoyed it and I have talked to more than a dozen people who enjoyed it too but the the people who counciled them when it was found out did everything but move heaven and earth to convince them they couldn't have enjoyed and it and that they were molested, in the people i am talking about they say the brow beating they took as they were demanded to admit they were raped instead of enjoying consensual sex was much more damaging than the actual sex. many reported being belittled and made to feel like they were horrible people because they enjoyed it.

Just as there are people who can handle drinking and driving better than others, it's still not an excuse to change the laws surrounding it.

 

Now i know these are just anecdotal experiences but to say a child cannot have sexual feelings and enjoy them is simply not true.

Where did anyone say that? Of course children have sexual feelings, and of course they can enjoy them. But to consent to adult sex with an adult requires knowledge and maturity I don't think the majority of children have. Change society, change the way we're raised, change the way we're educated, change the way we're taught to understand our responsibilities and then you can start talking about changing the consent laws.

 

Historically sex with a child was often a part of the culture, in Western culture just a couple hundred years ago sex with prepubescent children was allowed by marriage if for no other reason, some say a certain cultural minority of eastern Europe condones prepubescent child marriage and children are expected to have sexual feelings and act on them even today. through out history sex with children has been an expected part of those societies and often it was glorified in songs and poems. Child prostitution was common, especially if the child's mother was a prostitute as well.

Historically, we did many things that we now no longer do. Most of it I call progress.

 

So where does this idea that sex with a child is horrific, and inexcusable come from? Why is sex so special, i can harm my children psychologically in many ways that will disrupt their ability as an adult due to mental damage inflicted in the name of religion or some other teaching the adult believes in, the child has no choice in these things, parents can do some quite horrible things to their children as i stated in my last post but as long as it's not sex it's golden, why is sex restricted?

 

Where does this prohibition come from? The bible? no not hardly child molestation was not only condoned it was encouraged by god himself...

Personally, I think as our society grew, parents could no longer keep tabs on who their children came in contact with. Back in the day, you probably knew everyone in your village. Now you don't have time to know everyone on your block, and those not nearly as well as when we were working alongside those we lived with.

 

So we came up with laws to protect the kids. And we started telling them stories about predators and how sex was even dangerous with people you knew, to keep them from exploring before they were ready.

 

In most cases when sex with a little girl was condoned women in that society were often considered to be chattel, slaves and that slavery was often sexual as well as physical. So before we go off on an emotional rant of "it just is wrong because i feel like it's wrong" can we identify why think sexual contact of a non violent nature between adults and children has to be wrong and damaging to the child?

Again, where is anyone saying "it just is wrong because I feel like it's wrong"? I think some very compelling evidence and logic is being used here, not just feelings and opinion.

 

Even sex play between children is condemned today even though it is demonstrable that this sex play is quite natural for children.

The laws in many countries make exception to consent with those within a few years of the minor's age.

 

Please don't flame me because you think i condone sex with children, i do not... try to put aside your emotions and look at it with the eyes of a neutral observer. I can think of some pretty good reasons to restrict adult child sexual contact but so far not much in the way of real arguments have been given, lets hear some of those obvious arguments why sexual contact with an adult by a child is wrong.

Believe me, I know where you're coming from. I remember reading Jean M. Auel's fictional books about Neanderthal and Cro Magnon life when I was younger (back in the Pleistocene) and they described a culture where the village elders observed all the growing kids and determined which ones were mature enough to be paired with an adult to teach them about "pleasures". It seemed like a very civilized, stress-free and fair way to make the transition into adulthood.

 

But we're not in villages now. We don't even have that community culture going for us very much these days. So we make laws that cover worst case scenarios and prevent the worst of the abuses, or at least make them punishable when they're found out.

[Moontanman]

I agree that children have to be protected from being taken advantage of by adults, my own experiences bear that out, adults do not play the same way children do but if we protect children from sexual contact with adults because it might harm them why is sex the biggie and other forms of obvious psychological harm are ok? Think of the children of the West burro baptist church, (is that behavior consensual?) they are being abused terribly, far worse than being "bad touched by an adult" , those adults are taking advantage of their children to make them follow an agenda of hate and love of hate, the harm is not a "might be thing" why is sex so special?

 

Think of kids marching with the KKK, they have their own cute little white hooded robes there are others but i think you can see where i am going. Why is sex considered so harmful and other things just as harmful if not worse allowed? is sex really the "fate worse than death?" Or is it that Virginity still is a treasure beyond price? (that implies that women are still chattel) I think it has to do with the Abrahamic mythos and it's sexual suppression as interpreted by the Victorians, although if you actually read the bible it does contain child sexual molestation being allowed by god as long as it was the children of the enemy.... I just think it's telling our society is so obsessed with controlling sex but allows other things even more despicable.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Moontanman

[Phi for All]

Sex is much more basic than any ideology that gets enforced, though. It's at the core of our evolutionary drive. I think that's why we guard it more zealously than anything else that gets taught to children.

 

But if that's the case, why do we reinforce that sex is bad all the time?. Our swear words are mostly genitals and sexual references. That's the best we can do to shock someone, is use a sex word to underscore our words. It's really horrible to be a fucker, isn't it? Or a cocksucker? Gosh, how horrible, someone who does oral sex. What I don't get is why someone tough has a lotta balls (which are quite fragile), but a weakling is called a pussy (which can take more punishment than anything I know).

[Appolinaria]

I agree that children have to be protected from being taken advantage of by adults, my own experiences bear that out, adults do not play the same way children do but if we protect children from sexual contact with adults because it might harm them why is sex the biggie and other forms of obvious psychological harm are ok? Think of the children of the West burro baptist church, (is that behavior consensual?) they are being abused terribly, far worse than being "bad touched by an adult" , those adults are taking advantage of their children to make them follow an agenda of hate and love of hate, the harm is not a "might be thing" why is sex so special?

 

Think of kids marching with the KKK, they have their own cute little white hooded robes there are others but i think you can see where i am going. Why is sex considered so harmful and other things just as harmful if not worse allowed? is sex really the "fate worse than death?" Or is it that Virginity still is a treasure beyond price? (that implies that women are still chattel) I think it has to do with the Abrahamic mythos and it's sexual suppression as interpreted by the Victorians, although if you actually read the bible it does contain child sexual molestation being allowed by god as long as it was the children of the enemy.... I just think it's telling our society is so obsessed with controlling sex but allows other things even more despicable.

 

because there are a ton of pedos all around us. more of those than kkk members trying to recruit your kids. if there werent laws that could throw them in jail they wouldnt be scared of trying to seduce children. would you want a 45 year old creeper pursuing your 12 year old daughter?

[Moontanman]

because there are a ton of pedos all around us.

 

A ton of pedos all around us? How many is that per capatia? A ton of people would be about 12 or so, how many tons of non pedos are there all around us?

 

more of those than kkk members trying to recruit your kids.

 

I wouldn't be so sure, white supremacy is quite wide spread. I'd be willing to bet there are more white supremacists than pedos...

 

if there werent laws that could throw them in jail they wouldnt be scared of trying to seduce children. would you want a 45 year old creeper pursuing your 12 year old daughter?

 

Another appeal to emotion, this is a science forum, actual evidence should be presented, not an appeal to emotions. Why is sex so much more important to avoid than other forms of possible psychological damage? Why is the fear of this so wide spread in modern society?

 

Again, i am not trying to support the idea of sex with children.... Do you really think that pedophiles are everywhere just waiting for a chance to seduce 12 year old girls? Or could it be another case of media hype?

Edited October 15, 2011 by Moontanman

[Appolinaria]

Ok I went on google. Here you go.

"Adult retrospective studies show that 1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 men were sexually abused before the age of 18 (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2006). This means there are more than 42 million adult survivors of child sexual abuse in the U.S."

"Nearly 70% of all reported sexual assaults (including assaults on adults) occur to children ages 17 and under"

source is http://www.d2l.org/s...exual_Abuse.htm

So yes, I would say that this proves we have a substantial number of pedos around us... I did my research, now find a statistic about white supremacist recruiting

So now we have established that a large number of people have been sexually abused before the age of 18. here are the affects of that.

Take this statistic for example-

"Approximately 95% of teenage prostitutes have been sexually abused. Source: CCPCA, 1992."

I'm sure you'll try telling me prostitution is not detrimental to society..... but trust me on this one it is. & I'm too lazy to look up more stuff.

this is why the fear is so widespread. Because it has huge impacts on individuals & society.

 

Now, if you try to support the argument of a curious child engaging in sexual acts with an adult willingly, I'll give you this. Children usually don't reach sexual maturity until 17. (http://www.nlm.nih.g...icle/001950.htm) Before that age, their reproductive systems haven't finished developing and they can't technically feel arousal. If they aren't aroused, then they are not really engaging in sex. The brain isn't going through the same thing that happens with sexual stimulation in adults. If they aren't aroused, sex can also be painful. Even if a child claims they wanted to have sex, EVEN if they are 17 and sexually mature, it still technically can't be consensual.... The prefrontal cortex in children isn't fully developed until as late as 25, which affects decision-making. http://www.hhs.gov/o...ex/index.html#3 So what I'm saying is sex involves changes in the body & in the brain... both of which children are incapable of experiencing until sexual maturity. & even if they matured early, it's still not consensual. Therefore, any sexual act with a child is sexual abuse. Leading to all of the major, damaging affects I listed above.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Appolinaria

[Phi for All]

Ok I went on google. Here you go.

"Adult retrospective studies show that 1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 men were sexually abused before the age of 18 (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2006). This means there are more than 42 million adult survivors of child sexual abuse in the U.S."

"Nearly 70% of all reported sexual assaults (including assaults on adults) occur to children ages 17 and under"

source is http://www.d2l.org/s...exual_Abuse.htm

So yes, I would say that this proves we have a substantial number of pedos around us... I did my research, now find a statistic about white supremacist recruiting

So now we have established that a large number of people have been sexually abused before the age of 18. here are the affects of that.

Take this statistic for example-

"Approximately 95% of teenage prostitutes have been sexually abused. Source: CCPCA, 1992."

I'm sure you'll try telling me prostitution is not detrimental to society..... but trust me on this one it is. & I'm too lazy to look up more stuff.

this is why the fear is so widespread. Because it has huge impacts on individuals & society.

 

Now, if you try to support the argument of a curious child engaging in sexual acts with an adult willingly, I'll give you this. Children usually don't reach sexual maturity until 17. (http://www.nlm.nih.g...icle/001950.htm) Before that age, their reproductive systems haven't finished developing and they can't technically feel arousal. If they aren't aroused, then they are not really engaging in sex. The brain isn't going through the same thing that happens with sexual stimulation in adults. If they aren't aroused, sex can also be painful. Even if a child claims they wanted to have sex, EVEN if they are 17 and sexually mature, it still technically can't be consensual.... The prefrontal cortex in children isn't fully developed until as late as 25, which affects decision-making. http://www.hhs.gov/o...ex/index.html#3 So what I'm saying is sex involves changes in the body & in the brain... both of which children are incapable of experiencing until sexual maturity. & even if they matured early, it's still not consensual. Therefore, any sexual act with a child is sexual abuse. Leading to all of the major, damaging affects I listed above.

Really good work. In the future, you should take the extra step to link to the direct studies rather than the biased sites that quote them (like d2l.org, which obviously has an agenda), just for the more pure citation. But this was very well presented. +1

[Moontanman]

Ok I went on google. Here you go.

"Adult retrospective studies show that 1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 men were sexually abused before the age of 18 (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2006). This means there are more than 42 million adult survivors of child sexual abuse in the U.S."

"Nearly 70% of all reported sexual assaults (including assaults on adults) occur to children ages 17 and under"

source is http://www.d2l.org/s...exual_Abuse.htm

So yes, I would say that this proves we have a substantial number of pedos around us... I did my research, now find a statistic about white supremacist recruiting

So now we have established that a large number of people have been sexually abused before the age of 18. here are the affects of that.

Take this statistic for example-

"Approximately 95% of teenage prostitutes have been sexually abused. Source: CCPCA, 1992."

I'm sure you'll try telling me prostitution is not detrimental to society..... but trust me on this one it is. & I'm too lazy to look up more stuff.

this is why the fear is so widespread. Because it has huge impacts on individuals & society.

 

Now, if you try to support the argument of a curious child engaging in sexual acts with an adult willingly, I'll give you this. Children usually don't reach sexual maturity until 17. (http://www.nlm.nih.g...icle/001950.htm) Before that age, their reproductive systems haven't finished developing and they can't technically feel arousal. If they aren't aroused, then they are not really engaging in sex. The brain isn't going through the same thing that happens with sexual stimulation in adults. If they aren't aroused, sex can also be painful. Even if a child claims they wanted to have sex, EVEN if they are 17 and sexually mature, it still technically can't be consensual.... The prefrontal cortex in children isn't fully developed until as late as 25, which affects decision-making. http://www.hhs.gov/o...ex/index.html#3 So what I'm saying is sex involves changes in the body & in the brain... both of which children are incapable of experiencing until sexual maturity. & even if they matured early, it's still not consensual. Therefore, any sexual act with a child is sexual abuse. Leading to all of the major, damaging affects I listed above.

 

 

Appolinaria, could you stop with all the weird fonts, it makes it almost impossible to quote you

 

 

Ok I went on google. Here you go.

 

"Adult retrospective studies show that 1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 men were sexually abused before the age of 18 (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2006). This means there are more than 42 million adult survivors of child sexual abuse in the U.S."

 

The OP is asserting those numbers are inflated by a culture of victim hood, if the OP is reading this I'd like to see some figures on that as well.

 

"Nearly 70% of all reported sexual assaults (including assaults on adults) occur to children ages 17 and under"

source is http://www.d2l.org/s...exual_Abuse.htm

 

This assumes that sex below the age of 17 is abusive because they do not have sexual desire before the age of 17 nor can they consent, I doubt the first but tend to agree with the latter.

 

So yes, I would say that this proves we have a substantial number of pedos around us... I did my research, now find a statistic about white supremacist recruiting

So now we have established that a large number of people have been sexually abused before the age of 18. here are the affects of that.

 

 

That is the kind of information i was looking for, not some subjective "tons of pedos"

 

White power groups and numbers

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-10-20-hategroups_N.htm

 

ake this statistic for example-

"Approximately 95% of teenage prostitutes have been sexually abused. Source: CCPCA, 1992."

I'm sure you'll try telling me prostitution is not detrimental to society..... but trust me on this one it is. & I'm too lazy to look up more stuff.

this is why the fear is so widespread. Because it has huge impacts on individuals & society.

 

I am not arguing for prostitution or child molestation i am trying to uncover facts about the OP question.

I'll grant you that statistic but how many teenage prostitutes are there? millions or a few hundred at any one time?

 

Now, if you try to support the argument of a curious child engaging in sexual acts with an adult willingly, I'll give you this. Children usually don't reach sexual maturity until 17. (http://www.nlm.nih.g...icle/001950.htm) Before that age, their reproductive systems haven't finished developing and they can't technically feel arousal. If they aren't aroused, then they are not really engaging in sex.

 

You link did not say that they could not experience sexual arousal and other scientific investigations dispute this quite nicely, An extensive study in the 1950's showed exactly the opposite with infant females being able to lubricate and orgasm and infant males being able to get erects and orgasm as well. I know that by age five i could both get an erection and have an orgasm and little girls can indeed have orgasms as well.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Reports

 

You would have to look up the entire study to find the parts about children but they are and it was quite controversial in it's time. But having experienced it I know that neither age 17 or puberty is necessary for a person to experience arousal or orgasm.

 

Even if a child claims they wanted to have sex, EVEN if they are 17 and sexually mature, it still technically can't be consensual.... The prefrontal cortex in children isn't fully developed until as late as 25, which affects decision-making. http://www.hhs.gov/o...ex/index.html#3

 

This I have seen studies on this and I pretty much agree but I don't think the impairment is as bad as you would have us believe, but try to restrict the age of sexual concent to 25 and see how long it takes you to be ridding out of town on a rail. I think the natural human condition is to start having sex at puberty, our society frowns on it for some practical reasons and some totally arbitrary reasons but there is no doubt that once you hit puberty normal humans sex drive goes on over load... and 17 is far past puberty for the vast majority of the population.

 

So what I'm saying is sex involves changes in the body & in the brain... both of which children are incapable of experiencing until sexual maturity. & even if they matured early, it's still not consensual. Therefore, any sexual act with a child is sexual abuse. Leading to all of the major, damaging affects I listed above.

 

Again, this has been shown to not be true, not even close, even with out my anecdotal data it is it can be shown to be true that children can and do enjoy sexual contact, have erections, lubricate, and have orgasms.

 

And if not why not?

 

Most people agree that actions which harm others are wrong, but many actions are illegal which do not harm anyone and are known as victimless crimes. How can society justify criminalizing having sex with kids if it doesn't hurt anyone?

 

Many assume that a child will be 'traumatized' by having sex with an adult, however this is not true. Firstly ages of consent vary across the world (from 13 in Spain to 18 in California) - proof that there is no consensus on what the minimally acceptable age at which a person can engage in sex is. Secondly much of the 'trauma' (guilt, shame, victimization) felt by 'victims' is in fact caused by society, such as in the case of Africa's 'Witch Children', many of whom genuinely believe they are 'witches' - not because they are but because they have been told they are.

 

Suppose a child has consensual safe-sex with an adult in a society where this is permitted (and therefore not immoral/taboo etc). In what way would the child be harmed?

 

Also Appolinaria, the OP is asserting that the abuse numbers are skewed due to our society inflating the numbers to include all sexual contact and not just those that were traumatized, I would like to see some data to back this up but it needs to be addressed.

 

Secondly much of the 'trauma' (guilt, shame, victimization) felt by 'victims' is in fact caused by society, such as in the case of Africa's 'Witch Children', many of whom genuinely believe they are 'witches' - not because they are but because they have been told they are.

 

I think this possibility needs to be addressed...

 

I still assert that the issue of sex is indeed treated differently and not because it is some how more traumatic than anything else a parent can do to a child.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Moontanman

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

So yes, I would say that this proves we have a substantial number of pedos around us...

Is it not possible to sexually abuse a child without being a pedophile?

 

I can imagine there are a number of other reasons to commit sexual abuse, such as anger or a desire for power. One must also distinguish between pedophilia (which only applies to desire for prepubescent children) and ephebophilia.