Why did God divide the people of Babel?

[Greatest I am]

Why did God divide the people of Babel?

 

I know that most here do not believe this myth.

 

 

There are usually some moral reason given for God acting against mankind.

 

I cannot dither out any good moral reason for Babel.

 

Can you?

 

Regards

DL

 

 

[Phi for All]

As I understood it, it was supposed to be an object lesson against excessive pride. The earth had previously been flooded, and now mankind had the opportunity to be of one language, united in purpose, striving to do as God commanded in order to be worthy of heaven. But they wasted their efforts on trying to build a tower to reach heaven instead, so God threw down the tower and made them all speak differently so they couldn't unite to disobey him anymore.

 

Btw, why do you link to obviously biased sources to make your point? Why not use the original scriptures as a baseline? I think it would remove your blatant agenda from the discussion, make any conclusions you draw a lot stronger and help you avoid any mistakes those other sites may have made. I think there is enough to criticize about this explanation of why we speak different languages without any need for pre-digested conclusions.

[mooeypoo]

Why did God divide the people of Babel?

 

I know that most here do not believe this myth.

 

 

There are usually some moral reason given for God acting against mankind.

 

I cannot dither out any good moral reason for Babel.

 

Not all of God's actions (or myths) in the bible are out of morality per say, some of them are meant to explain current situations or phenomena. In this particular case, the generally accepted explanation, at least from what I've learned, is meant for two main goals:

 

1. Simply explain why so many nations exist that speak such different languages. If indeed God created all of mankind, and the chain of existence of humanity follows from Adam and Eve and onwards, then language should ahve been at the very least *similar*, if not the exact same. And yet it isn't, and it wasn't 3000+ years ago either. The writers at that time needed to find a "plausible" reason for their flock of believers, and this is as good a reason as any; the multiple of languages doesn't work "against" god's existence, but rather "for" his existence.

It's a rather brilliant brainwashing move.

 

2. It serves for a moral story against gluttony of knowledge -- that is, against aspiring to conquer "god" or rise above the nations, etc (I'm sorry, I forgot the term, but I know there is on in English and now it's going to kill me until I remember it, so if anyone can help here, I'd appreciate it).

 

In any case, whether we agree with the specific morality or not is irrelevant. I disagree with 80% of the "moral judgments" of the bible -- they are still meant as moral judgments, though, for the flock that read and followed the teachings of the biblical leaders. This is a story that means to show that you should be careful not to overstep your bounds.

 

Actually, the interesting thing is that I heard this biblical reference used in medical ethics cases, as to metaphorically ask the question of "are we gods" (regardless of belief), which seems to imply the story does have some moral judgment in it, even if you (or I, or anyone) disagrees with the conclusion or premise.

 

~mooey

 

 

 

 

P.S, I always found the story ITSELF (literarily speaking) very interesting.

 

Hebrew chunk (if anyone's interested):

Genesis 11:1-9 -- I'm reading it in hebrew, but you can see the hebrew/english version (side by side) in this link.

According to jewish scholars, part of the "problem" was that the builders of the tower wanted to avoid a second flood disaster by building a tower that will go above any water level. So now it's not just about "reaching the sky" for the sake of overtaking God's role, but rather work against God's judgment/punishment, which is why God got angry.

[Greatest I am]

As I understood it, it was supposed to be an object lesson against excessive pride. The earth had previously been flooded, and now mankind had the opportunity to be of one language, united in purpose, striving to do as God commanded in order to be worthy of heaven. But they wasted their efforts on trying to build a tower to reach heaven instead, sniped

 

This I doubt as I am sure that if the ancients wanted to build anything to reach the sky, they would have started on a high plateau and not in the low lands.

 

Further, who has dominion over the earth?Did God not give man dominion?

 

If so, God lost all rights to tell man what to do.

 

If he did not IYO, then the Bible lies.

 

Btw, why do you link to obviously biased sources to make your point? Why not use the original scriptures as a baseline? I think it would remove your blatant agenda from the discussion, make any conclusions you draw a lot stronger and help you avoid any mistakes those other sites may have made. I think there is enough to criticize about this explanation of why we speak different languages without any need for pre-digested conclusions.

 

Actually, there was nothing better out there that I could find otherwise I would have complicated the O p a bit.

 

Regards

DL

 

 

 

 

Moo

 

Thanks for that.

 

I will not know if I agree with the morals of this story till I have a better idea of what it is.

 

I am with you though on the immorality of most of what bible God does.

 

Regards

DL

[Moontanman]

AS i read it God, was afraid that if men could do "this" meaning build the tower, they soon would be able to do anything so in fear of this the gods confused their languages...

 

And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

[Phi for All]

This I doubt as I am sure that if the ancients wanted to build anything to reach the sky, they would have started on a high plateau and not in the low lands.

How can you doubt it when it says it as clearly as the Bible ever says anything?

 

2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

3 And they said one to another: 'Come, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly.' And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar.

4 And they said: 'Come, let us build us a city, and a tower, with its top in heaven, and let us make us a name; lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.'

Plains. Tower. Top in heaven. So what's to doubt?

 

And as far as dominion goes, it's not who is ruling the land that's in question. It's about what mankind was doing with this second chance God gave them. Building a tower to reach heaven through some kind of back door, like hackers looking to scam the system. So God sends them a virus that messes up the program language.

 

Instead of the dominion argument, why are you passing up the chance to point out that God seems a little scared here? As Moontanman points out, God seems fearful that man will be able to accomplish anything if he lets them get away with this.

 

5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the LORD said: 'Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is what they begin to do; and now nothing will be withholden from them, which they purpose to do.

7 Come, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.'

And who exactly is God talking to when he says, "Behold" and, "Come, let us go down"? Who is "us"?

[Brainteaserfan]

How can you doubt it when it says it as clearly as the Bible ever says anything?

 

 

Plains. Tower. Top in heaven. So what's to doubt?

 

And as far as dominion goes, it's not who is ruling the land that's in question. It's about what mankind was doing with this second chance God gave them. Building a tower to reach heaven through some kind of back door, like hackers looking to scam the system. So God sends them a virus that messes up the program language.

 

Instead of the dominion argument, why are you passing up the chance to point out that God seems a little scared here? As Moontanman points out, God seems fearful that man will be able to accomplish anything if he lets them get away with this.

 

 

And who exactly is God talking to when he says, "Behold" and, "Come, let us go down"? Who is "us"?

I really don't want to get into this, but as for who God is talking to, He was talking to the other members of the Trinity.

[ewmon]

Why did God divide the people of Babel?

Genesis 11:1-9

Now the whole earth had one language and the same words. And as people migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, "Come, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly." And they had brick for stone, and bitumen for mortar. Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth." And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built. And the LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech." So the LORD dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth. And from there the LORD dispersed them over the face of all the earth.

BTW, linguistic scholars place the location of the hypothetical Proto-Indo-European language relatively close to Mesopotamia.

 

I am sure that if the ancients wanted to build anything to reach the sky, they would have started on a high plateau and not in the low lands.

Natural resources (water, arable land, transport, etc) required to sustain a prehistoric civilization building a sky-high tower occur mostly at lower elevations. Even with modern technology, very few major metropolitan areas are located at high altitude.

[mooeypoo]

Genesis 11:1-9BTW, linguistic scholars place the location of the hypothetical Proto-Indo-European language relatively close to Mesopotamia.

 

Natural resources (water, arable land, transport, etc) required to sustain a prehistoric civilization building a sky-high tower occur mostly at lower elevations. Even with modern technology, very few major metropolitan areas are located at high altitude.

 

Also, just pointing out here, but the middle east (and mesopotamia especially) is not a very mountainous areas. It's easy to say you'd RATHER build a tower on a mountain if there are mountains around. You build it in the low lands when the low lands is all you have access to.

 

I really don't want to get into this, but as for who God is talking to, He was talking to the other members of the Trinity.

 

If you don't want to get into this, don't post absolute-sentences that demand further questions...

 

 

As in... why would he talk to the trinity if in nowhere does it say that, when in other occasions God has been talking to his followers (or "readers" / "listeners" of the stories) and that's not quite believed to be "for the trinity" and more importantly, how does that CHANGE anything?

 

Hit-and-run posts are fun, but they're not quite sufficient for good debates.

 

~mooey

 

And who exactly is God talking to when he says, "Behold" and, "Come, let us go down"? Who is "us"?

To be fair, in the OT at least God is ALWAYS being referred to in "plural" and also, the word itself is "Elohim" -- the "im" at the end is a suffix used to state something is "many". This is usually explained as saying he is *everything* (though i'm not too sure I accept this solution) and also as a form of respect (like in french).

To be fair, this isn't the only place god speaks to himself in the 'many'. It's kind of like speaking "high language".

 

French has this too -- to speak "respectfully" to an elder, for instance, you use the plural form "Vous" rather than the singular "Tu". Same is happening with respect to God when te word "Elohim" is used. English doesn't have a separation in "You" if it's one or many, but hebrew does and in the biblical text a lot of time it's used for respect, not just for God. Kings are being spoken to like that too in quite a number of cases.

 

I do agree it's a problem in general (not just in this quote), but this, as far as I know, is the common interpretation.

 

~mooey

[ewmon]

Natural resources (water, arable land, transport, etc) required to sustain a prehistoric civilization building a sky-high tower occur mostly at lower elevations. Even with modern technology, very few major metropolitan areas are located at high altitude.

Higher elevations also have steeper and more variable slopes, and lower elevations have flatter and more consistent slopes. This means that transport of laborers and materials by land and water requires a greater effort at higher latitudes than at lower altitudes. An example of a significant, prehistoric construction project is Stonehenge, which has an elevation of 100 m and is 2 km from the River Avon.

[Greatest I am]

AS i read it God, was afraid that if men could do "this" meaning build the tower, they soon would be able to do anything so in fear of this the gods confused their languages...

 

And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

 

I like the idea of men putting fear in God's heart.

If only that God actually existed to feel it.

 

Regards

DL

 

How can you doubt it when it says it as clearly as the Bible ever says anything?

 

 

Plains. Tower. Top in heaven. So what's to doubt?

 

 

What is to doubt in the Bible?

 

Everything to me. Nothing to those who believe it to be the WORD of God..

 

 

And as far as dominion goes, it's not who is ruling the land that's in question. It's about what mankind was doing with this second chance God gave them. Building a tower to reach heaven through some kind of back door, like hackers looking to scam the system. So God sends them a virus that messes up the program language.

 

Instead of the dominion argument, why are you passing up the chance to point out that God seems a little scared here? As Moontanman points out, God seems fearful that man will be able to accomplish anything if he lets them get away with this.

 

 

Here again a theist would just deny this and say that man was getting uppity and needed a good dose of God’s wrath. Theists are quite enamored by God’s wrath. They are trained to fear God.

 

At least the dominion angle leads to other issues that I can tie them up in knots with.

 

They bob and weave out of those knots of course but never in a logical way.

 

 

And who exactly is God talking to when he says, "Behold" and, "Come, let us go down"? Who is "us"?

 

You underestimate theists and how they can bob and weave and delude themselves.

 

God would be talking to his angels of course. To a theist that assumption is iron clad.

 

Regards

DL

[Phi for All]

What is to doubt in the Bible?

 

Everything to me. Nothing to those who believe it to be the WORD of God..

No, no, you don't get to bob and weave on me about this. You said, "This I doubt as I am sure that if the ancients wanted to build anything to reach the sky, they would have started on a high plateau and not in the low lands." I pointed out the actual scripture, what is written in the Bible. It IS the word of God, it's right there.

 

The fact that you and I don't believe in the God they're talking about is irrelevant in this instance. The book claims they built the tower on the plains to reach the heavens. Period. You don't have to believe in it to acknowledge what it says.

 

Here again a theist would just deny this and say that man was getting uppity and needed a good dose of God’s wrath. Theists are quite enamored by God’s wrath. They are trained to fear God.

Don't put words in other people's mouths. I don't want to hear what you think a theist would say. I want to hear what you say.

 

At least the dominion angle leads to other issues that I can tie them up in knots with.

This is a good moment for a "mwahahaha!"

 

They bob and weave out of those knots of course but never in a logical way.

All the more reason for you to stay focused and positive.

 

You underestimate theists and how they can bob and weave and delude themselves.

Now you're telling me what I think?

 

God would be talking to his angels of course. To a theist that assumption is iron clad.

Angels, that's what I thought. But apparently it's not so iron-clad. Some people think it's the trinity. Others say it's the third person perfect.

 

Generalizations are always bad.

[mooeypoo]

Also, I must point out, you don't have to be religious or a theist or even spiritual to enjoy reading the bible. The fact I personally don't believe there's a god, and I personally disagree with some (or a lot) of the moral judgments in that book, does not prevent me from finding it an absolutely brilliant source of dogmatic education for people who lived 2000 years ago. It raises important questions even if I dislike the answers it offers. It serves as an example of how education was done back then - with a touch of brainwashing, dogmatic speech, very careful symbolisms, etc. It gives us an idea of what was important back then, if we can ignore the religious/spiritual dogmatic interpretations and work on it as a literary source.

 

It doesn't stop me from appreciating the literary value in the stories in it, and what impact it had on society back then (either the spoken stories or the written accounts).

 

I am quite tired of excusing my interest in the bible, and the fact I enjoy reading it. Quite a number of theists seem to think I have no right to read it the way I do and need to conform to a particular dogma, and some atheists seem to consider it an exception to the rule of respecting books (and avoiding book burning, say) and claim it should be either avoided or hated.

 

I like it, and I refuse to give monopoly over how to read it to *any* group. It's a piece of literary history that has impact on societies back then, and now. We should respect it for what it is, regardless of whether or not we agree with it or believe it to be the word of almighty god.

 

~mooey

[Greatest I am]

moo

 

I basically share your view.

I see the bible in the same way I see all the older books of religion. All were intended to be books of wisdom.

Like you say, sometimes your have to denounce the morality it shows to end up seeing the wisdom in it.

It is a good book for stimulating thought.

It is not quite a fairy tale but all fairy tales have good moral values in them. Or they try to in any case.

 

Regards

DL